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Old 01-28-2010   #1
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Are super well done graphics actually bad for the gaming industry?

I was thinking earlier about this. Are graphics actually a bad thing for the gaming industry?

With the rising production and selling costs of games high end graphics may be bad for games in the long run. With the increased need in game makers mind to breate mind blowing graphics it has taken away from other aspects of gaming.

Take Heavenly Sword for instance. That game cost $15M to make before advertising and it was only a 6 hour long game or so. With the game only lasting that long gamers can feel a bit cheated when they dropped $60 to own it.

This is happening more and more in games it seems. The more it is costing to make a game, the shorter it seems to be as one bad montrh in sales can cost a company millions of $s.

Personally I think they should have just stayed in the Ps2 area of graphics. The graphics being that good were good enough, it cost less to make them than it does now, and sales were probably at all time highs most of the time in that era.

With less money going to graphics the other aspects of games like story, gameplay, character development, and length of the games were able to get more time spent on them from developers and a more satisfying game would hopefully come out of all that attention to every detail of a game and not just mostly to the graphic quality of the game.

If it costs so much to create a game now, can you imagine the next gen costs? Hell most games will cost $20M to make probably and cost us $80-$90 probably and that isn't counting the special editions that come out for some games. It will put game sjust out of reach for a lot of people especially if the economy continues to plummet in the years to come or doesn't grow by a vast amount.

What does everyone else think about this?
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Old 01-28-2010   #2
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The problem with those great graphics is that most will begin to loss their appeal in a short amount of time, especially if more and more games with better graphics being made--much like a relationship based purely on sex; its the ideal relationship...until you get tired of it.
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Old 01-28-2010   #3
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Shamus Young put it pretty well:

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Stop spending so much on graphics.

As I have said before, we're way past the point of diminishing returns. The difference between "good graphics" and "crappy graphics" is far more about art design and far less about exploring new frontiers in real-time ray tracing.

You'll be amazed at how much faster your artists can work when they're not being handed a whole new set of tools to learn every eighteen months.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/arti...iring-Everyone
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Old 01-28-2010   #4
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Short answer: No.


Long Answer: Graphics are as important to a game as any other element. Eat shit, non graphics fags.


Having better graphics doesn't mean a game will be shorter. Chrono Trigger is like a ten hour game, even LESS if you know what you're doing. Most games these days average out to about 15 hours, give or take a few. Some are shorter, yes, but longer doesn't mean better. Bayonetta is an eight hour game. I STILL play it. It was worth every penny. Graphics aren't hurting the industry. Developers that just focus on graphics above everything else are. Games need to run like a well oiled machine.

But no, great graphics are not bad for the industry. Nor are short games. Because let's face it, as the gaming generation gets older, we don't have TIME TO INVEST IN LONG AS FUCK GAMES.
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Old 01-28-2010   #5
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Better graphics make gaming more enjoyable to me. I never pay full price for a new game, so that isnt an issue, just wait a month or two til people trade them in. There will always be games that have good gameplay, there will always be companies who care about that. Theres no excuse to substitute gameplay for graphics. They should be equally as impressive.

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Long Answer: Graphics are as important to a game as any other element. Eat shit, non graphics fags.
thank you.
I lol'd when I saw I got bad "rep" for saying graphics matter. At least there ARE more gamers now, and people who do appreciate good looking, beautiful, realistic games. Sorry, Im not a super geek, after seeing Uncharted, Im not going to be as amused as something that looks like a PS1 game.

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But no, great graphics are not bad for the industry. Nor are short games. Because let's face it, as the gaming generation gets older, we don't have TIME TO INVEST IN LONG AS FUCK GAMES.
Another good point.

I do like long games, too. But sometimes if its short its a good thing. And Im the kind of person who will replay games and re-read books.


Get over it, games that look good are amazing. That attracts a lot of people and entertains. If nothing else its made gaming less of a nerd taboo. I used to be the only "girl gamer" in entire schools and that used to be a "term", now everyone owns a system and Im not an outcast.
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Old 01-28-2010   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Chipotlé View Post
Short answer: No.


Long Answer: Graphics are as important to a game as any other element. Eat shit, non graphics fags.
I'll see your shit and raise you an even bigger pile of shit. Keep reading.

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Having better graphics doesn't mean a game will be shorter. Chrono Trigger is like a ten hour game, even LESS if you know what you're doing. Most games these days average out to about 15 hours, give or take a few. Some are shorter, yes, but longer doesn't mean better. Bayonetta is an eight hour game. I STILL play it. It was worth every penny. Graphics aren't hurting the industry. Developers that just focus on graphics above everything else are. Games need to run like a well oiled machine.

But no, great graphics are not bad for the industry. Nor are short games. Because let's face it, as the gaming generation gets older, we don't have TIME TO INVEST IN LONG AS FUCK GAMES.
Again, you prove my point for me. WE DON'T HAVE TIME. Now ask yourself: Would FFXIII be taking NEARLY as long to come out if the graphics were even 90% of what it is? If a game isn't amaxing graphically but is still very playable, it can be pumped out FAR faster, thus increasing the number of 8 hour games at our disposal! And people wonder why Nintendo had so many Wii games early on? Look at them, graphically. They do not hurt the eyes and are in fact nice to look at, even if they can lack the HD realism of the 360 and PS3.

How about you consider all aspects of a discussion before telling people to eat shit? And are you going to continue proving my point for me again?
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Old 01-28-2010   #7
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Again, you prove my point for me. WE DON'T HAVE TIME. Now ask yourself: Would FFXIII be taking NEARLY as long to come out if the graphics were even 90% of what it is? If a game isn't amaxing graphically but is still very playable, it can be pumped out FAR faster, thus increasing the number of 8 hour games at our disposal!
It's cute how you believe that. With all the engines out there in the gaming world, the problem is getting things to work well in the game. Not making them look amazing and then worrying about the other technical ramifications. A good company has several dedicated people on graphics detail. A better one has more and more people per every station. A good graphics team can pump out great visuals in a shorter amount of time than, say, a CGI filled movie. I'd argue that a 2D game would be harder to churn out because it would be using more original assets. Those being hand drawn and thus would take more frames of animation to work right. Whereas a technically amazing 3D game can cut corners and still look fantastic. Take Mass Effect 2, for example, at one point in the game you arrive in an area where there are a BUNCH of similar looking Quarians. They all look fantastic, right down to the cloth patterns on their hoods. The reason for this could be as simple as keeping them out of focus and thus lower res, or just a swap of pallets that PLENTY of games do these days. And how long did Mass Effect 2 take? Two years. How long did Uncharted 2 take? Two fucking years. Companies can make really great games and really great graphical games in about two years. So what was that about pumping games out faster? You'd sacrifice graphics if a game came out in, like, one year? Or simply months later?

It's the same thing that an action game with lots of enemies do. Create a few different looking dudes, mess with the colors and shit and bam, you've got cannon fodder that looks good with not a whole lot of effort. Compared to other stuff, I mean.

A shitty looking game can take longer than a decent looking one. Graphics don't take the most time on most games.


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And people wonder why Nintendo had so many Wii games early on? Look at them, graphically. They do not hurt the eyes and are in fact nice to look at, even if they can lack the HD realism of the 360 and PS3.
Red Steel hurt my eyes. The problem with the Wii is that no one uses the specs, which are impressive, because of the problems with the Wiimote. And then when a graphically okay game (by Wii standards) comes out, it suffers inconsistent framerates. The best three looking Wii games are Galaxy, Prime 3, and Shattered Memories. Two of these games suffer from frame rate and other inconsistencies. It's easy to make a shitty looking game on the Wii. No one notices because 90% of the Wii's library is either shitty ports or games or they look terrible compared to the other consoles. Especially when upscaled. You can count pixels in Silent Hill. And the Wii didn't have that many games early on. No more compared to the others, anyway. And especially no more compared to the 360. The 360 suffered early on from shitty graphics. It got better.

You bring up FF13. It's been in development no longer than any high end Nintendo game. And SE has been working on other games, each for a next gen console (with some exceptions, of course), where the graphics are more of an issue simply because it's an HD console. The Wii is not.

But the Wii games can look nice and still be shitty. The Conduit is a prime example. It's not shitty because of graphics or because of length. It's shitty because of controls. Which only proves MY point of 'games must be like a well oiled machine.' The Wii does not subscribe to this philosophy because it is content pumping out mini game collections that look like an early PS2 game. And those are a dime a dozen in the Wii section at your local game store. Those are bad for the gaming industry. Not well done graphics.


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How about you consider all aspects of a discussion before telling people to eat shit? And are you going to continue proving my point for me again?

How about you follow your own advice before getting hot headed at me for, gasp, counter pointing the topic. I DID consider the discussion. And then I stated my case. I notice you didn't add anything, instead choosing to get on my case. And unless you are the 'graphics aren't important fag' I mentioned, why you get all hot and bothered over the eat shit comment escapes me.

So, you know, imbibe fecal matter, pile of sticks.
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Old 01-28-2010   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Chipotlé View Post
It's cute how you believe that. With all the engines out there in the gaming world, the problem is getting things to work well in the game. Not making them look amazing and then worrying about the other technical ramifications. A good company has several dedicated people on graphics detail. A better one has more and more people per every station. A good graphics team can pump out great visuals in a shorter amount of time than, say, a CGI filled movie. I'd argue that a 2D game would be harder to churn out because it would be using more original assets. Those being hand drawn and thus would take more frames of animation to work right. Whereas a technically amazing 3D game can cut corners and still look fantastic. Take Mass Effect 2, for example, at one point in the game you arrive in an area where there are a BUNCH of similar looking Quarians. They all look fantastic, right down to the cloth patterns on their hoods. The reason for this could be as simple as keeping them out of focus and thus lower res, or just a swap of pallets that PLENTY of games do these days. And how long did Mass Effect 2 take? Two years. How long did Uncharted 2 take? Two fucking years. Companies can make really great games and really great graphical games in about two years. So what was that about pumping games out faster? You'd sacrifice graphics if a game came out in, like, one year? Or simply months later?

It's the same thing that an action game with lots of enemies do. Create a few different looking dudes, mess with the colors and shit and bam, you've got cannon fodder that looks good with not a whole lot of effort. Compared to other stuff, I mean.

A shitty looking game can take longer than a decent looking one. Graphics don't take the most time on most games.
Let me get this straight. You're actually using palette swaps, the oldest and most overdone/annoying thing in ANY game, in an attempt to prove a point?

... you know, I'm not going to waste 30 seconds of my life to justify that with a full response. You're not worth the time spent typing.
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Old 01-28-2010   #9
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Time isn't a problem. Money is. But then time is money so Saph's kinda right but on the wrong track.

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A good company has several dedicated people on graphics detail. A better one has more and more people per every station.
So you're saying that they should double or more their graphics budget so that you can better make out the pores on peoples' skin or the microfibers on someone's clothing? Seriously, where else do we have to go with graphics? Honestly, I've got nothing more to add, though I like how my first post was pretty much ignored.

We're at a good point now. We don't need a PS4 that's going to just up the graphics capabilities. You're dumping precious experience points and money into a stat that's already maxed out.
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Old 01-28-2010   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terbobattfuch View Post
Let me get this straight. You're actually using palette swaps, the oldest and most overdone/annoying thing in ANY game, in an attempt to prove a point?

... you know, I'm not going to waste 30 seconds of my life to justify that with a full response. You're not worth the time spent typing.


There's a difference between a palette swap in a game like Final Fantasy whatever and a game like Mass Effect 2 or Uncharted 2 or Arkham Asylum.

But since you're perfectly content to be an ass, I see no need to explain myself either.

If you're not even going to counter the argument, why bother.

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Originally Posted by Yvl View Post
Time isn't a problem. Money is. But then time is money so Saph's kinda right but on the wrong track.


So you're saying that they should double or more their graphics budget so that you can better make out the pores on peoples' skin or the microfibers on someone's clothing? Seriously, where else do we have to go with graphics? Honestly, I've got nothing more to add, though I like how my first post was pretty much ignored.

We're at a good point now. We don't need a PS4 that's going to just up the graphics capabilities. You're dumping precious experience points and money into a stat that's already maxed out.
We still haven't gotten past the uncanny valley. I'm not saying they should double anything. A developer like Epic has more staff than a developer at Platinum. It was a statement of manpower. I didn't say 'All game companies should double staff' because that's cost inefficient. A studio like The Behemoth or Twisted Pixel does well enough for a small staff. Hiring more people would just be stupid. More manpower is a double edged sword.

Am I saying that all games should get a major graphical overhaul? No. Dynasty Warriors with fuckawesome graphics would be terrible, no doubt suffer from terrible framerate and have less dudes on screen and would show you how generic and bland the game really is. Am I saying that Sonic the Hedgehog needs such a graphical focus? God no, they could barely get 2D right. Am I saying. But a game like Heavy Rain could not be possible with bad graphics. A game like Uncharted 2 would suffer from bad graphics. Graphics don't make or break a game.

Graphics aren't 'maxed out'. Until games can conquer the uncanny valley and run at a smooth 60 FPS while having loads of unique looking dudes on the screen, it still has some maturing to do. In a generation where two of the three main consoles are HD consoles, games can no longer afford to look like ass in 1080p. There are a bunch of people out there who put graphics as a main selling point. You're probably gonna say that those people are the ones at fault and I'll say 'Good developers don't make games to pander to a small demographic, they make the game they want to make'. Just ask Hideki Kamiya or Suda 51.

And if that game they want to make has great graphics and a shit story, well it'll get a 10/10 on GameSpot.com. (That's a Hideo Kojima joke)

Ask yourselves this: If graphics don't mean shit, why do most review outlets talk about them in their reviews?


Games look better than they did ten years ago, yes. But that's because of the technology changing along with the times. They can still be improved. Will still be improved. And I'm looking forward to it. And just because they'll look great won't automatically mean it comes at the expense of other factors in the game.

Wake up if you think otherwise.
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