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Old 01-09-2011   #21
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It's not a legit complaint because literally no one else has ever had an issue with it because it isn't a factor at all.
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Old 01-09-2011   #22
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Originally Posted by Lancet Jades View Post
It may not change how stupid it is, but it does mean the majority of people were able to not bitch about every little thing they can find to bitch about.
And this leads to people rating mediocre games an 8 out of 10, and then a game which is literally twice as good only getting a point or two higher. In order to give accurate ratings, you need to be as critical as you can, find every flaw, and from there, look at how good the remaining aspects shine.

For example, Assume you rated a game a 10/10. The review you wrote is archived, no edit button, set in stone. Now imagine a game that blows it out of the water in every way coming out. People assume the standard for games should be a 7 or 8, but then how do you praise a genuinely good game if you overlook flaws to give those scores? After all, you're effectively rating games against each other, in the long run! Average should be 5-6, realistically, so the truly unplayable can get a 1 and the truly amazing can get a 10.

This isn't always bad, however. For example, take FF:MQ. By all standards it's a pretty crappy game, with only the soundtrack standing out, but I still like it, despite how it'd likely only get a 3 or 4 by the way I rate games these days. There's quite a few games that have many stupid flaws that hurt its rating that I still enjoy.

Now that I know where to go and what to do in Uncharted 2, it's the same. The issue came from my first playthrough and finding wtf moments at every turn. "Oh, there is no way I can make that jump!" I then proceed to spend a whole 20 minutes looking for an alternative route. There is literally nothing to work with, so I eventually try the jump, and go figure, I make it completely, landing on the other side rather than catching the ledge. My total time upon beating the gamne was roughly 12 hours. I bet it should have only taken 8.

There were even more moments of "Oh, hey, I can go here-" *death.* "Looks like I can jump here!" *death* I swear to god, of my 118 "Checkpoint failures or restarts" 100 were simply falling to my death in places I should have realistically survived, simply because the game did not want me to do that. I mean, I literally broke the game in multiple places where they didn't think of turning that autodeath on, that's a design flaw.

Marking one example in particular that bothered me in spoilers.

 click to show


So yeah...

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It's not a legit complaint because literally no one else has ever had an issue with it because it isn't a factor at all.
That's like saying the first slave to ever complain wasn't a legit complaint since no one else had spoken up before that and thus it wasn't a factor at all. It may be a bad comparison, but I'm just saying.

I've been playing games longer than most modern gamers, and as such, seem to approach games from a different angle. Thus, I seem to think that things are possible that aren't, and vice versa, because once upon a time, game mechanics were centered around functionality rather than being flashy. (Is there any other way to describe those climbing segments in games? They're not very exciting and while they're nice from a point A to point B standpoint of getting around, they really do little besides showcase the HD graphics, especially when you have entire levels centered around exploration, like in the mountains with Tenzin.)

Another example of Saph vs Modern Gamers is near the end when you need to make a mad dash, and the camera is stuck looking behind you to show you what you're running from, when it would have been much better, gameplay wise, to be able to see more of what's in front of you to plan out your moves better. They took the emphasis off actually seeing the path you were escaping on and put the emphasis on the big flashy crisis behind you. It's things like this that modern gamers lap up happily that I find hurt the game from a gameplay perspective. (It should be noted that I have no issues with the run-and-gun segment near the start of the Nepal stage, as you have a reason to look back: aiming) Let's look at Halo 3. When everything was going to hell and you were driving for your life like a madman, was the camera stuck behind you to show shit blowing up? No, because enough of that happened in front of you, and you needed to see where you were going!


Overall, I'd probably rate Uncharted 2 as "above average" at 6 or 7 (Again, with 5 as an average and 7-8 reserved for "really good" titles.) What I did like was great, but combining every last issue with it hurts the overall score. Don't get me wrong. Much like MQ it was enjoyable overall, but you can't deny that repeatedly finding gamebreaking bugs on your very first playthrough = they needed to playtest more.

Last edited by Snips; 01-09-2011 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Adding the time
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Old 01-09-2011   #23
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In order to give accurate ratings, you need to be as critical as you can, find every flaw, and from there, look at how good the remaining aspects shine.
No, not if this leads to someone literally nitpicking over the most trivial fucking things.

God damn it is literally like you went into this game with the mindset of "No way this can be as good as everyone says so I'm going to purposely try to fuck the game up by trying to do things the engine isn't built for and then complain about busted mechanics that aren't busted."
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Old 01-09-2011   #24
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Saph, there is a difference between legitimate complaints and YOUR complaints. The former are legitimate, and should factor into ratings and the general perception of how good a game is. The latter is trivial bullshit that only the most pedantic fool with the intention of ruining the game for himself would care about. And, of course, you apply this standard unevenly, singling out games you either hate (FF7) or go into expecting to be disappointed (Uncharted 2, apparently). You never, ever point out flaws in games you like (such as Tales games), unless it is a compromise, in exchange for us accepting another game (usually an FF) has the same flaw, but much worse.

You want a bad game that deserves to be torn apart piece by piece? The Legend of Alon D'ar for PS2. At least if you play and bitch about THAT game, everyone will agree.
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Old 01-09-2011   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Chipotlé View Post
No, not if this leads to someone literally nitpicking over the most trivial fucking things.

God damn it is literally like you went into this game with the mindset of "No way this can be as good as everyone says so I'm going to purposely try to fuck the game up by trying to do things the engine isn't built for and then complain about busted mechanics that aren't busted."
Oh, I'd say it's plenty fucking busted if I repeatedly break the game just trying to advance normally without a guide. If anything, I didn't expect much due to the hype, since hype tends to grate me the wrong way, so I enjoyed it more than I expected to.

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Originally Posted by Lancet Jades View Post
Saph, there is a difference between legitimate complaints and YOUR complaints. The former are legitimate, and should factor into ratings and the general perception of how good a game is. The latter is trivial bullshit that only the most pedantic fool with the intention of ruining the game for himself would care about.
So a game that can be repeatedly broken (Walking through walls, invisible walls, falling through floors, and so on, without being that way intentionally (See: The N64 Zelda games)) simply by not following a guide = not a legitimate complaint, but trivial bullshit? Sorry, we're clearly not on the same planet here. By all means, I could record 10 examples off the top of my head if I only had a capture card or some way to record the game footage. I went back and replicated the scenarios to see if they were one time bugs. Most repeated.

Quote:
And, of course, you apply this standard unevenly, singling out games you either hate (FF7) or go into expecting to be disappointed (Uncharted 2, apparently). You never, ever point out flaws in games you like (such as Tales games), unless it is a compromise, in exchange for us accepting another game (usually an FF) has the same flaw, but much worse.
Oh, Tales has plenty of flaws too. The stories are all very cliched and follow the same basic formula, for one. While I never had much of a chance to play ToE/ToD or the Japan only ones like TotT, ToR, etc, the ones I owned and beat (5 titles, not counting Radiant Mythology since it's a crossover title) all followed the same basic idea: Ancient civilization with superior technology was lost, more than once because its own technology doomed it. Boom, modern times, awakening of ancient relics or machines or whatnot, and shit hits the fan.

Sure, the style of the crisis may change, be it a tidal wave that threatens to wash away the mainland, a fatal miasma, an ultra powerful being from another world, etc, but it's always about that ancient civilization. See, at least the older Final Fantasies did it right with the Crystals. Their roles may not have always been the same, but they were a staple, like chocobos. Tales flat out uses the same formula time and time again, and that gets old, so old that Namco has announced it won't be localizing any future Tales games since it's just not worth the expenses.

See, the thing is, I don't bring the flaws up in casual conversation because I (generally, some exceptions exist) like the games. I used MQ as an example earlier. I don't care if it sucks, I like it. This thread was done the way I critique a game. I may come across as overly harsh but in doing so I aim to place it on a scale where it can accurately compare with other titles. I did enjoy Uncharted, but it did have its flaws, rather major ones from a gamebreaking perspective and I was pointing them out.


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Originally Posted by Lancet Jades View Post
You want a bad game that deserves to be torn apart piece by piece? The Legend of Alon D'ar for PS2. At least if you play and bitch about THAT game, everyone will agree.
You know what the funny part is? If everyone else hates it, odds are I'd end up giving it a good score. Not because I'm being difficult, but because if I go in expecting a bad experience, my expectations will be lower.
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Old 01-09-2011   #26
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Oh, I'd say it's plenty fucking busted if I repeatedly break the game just trying to advance normally without a guide.

Funny how you are the only fucking person on the god damn planet who has these so-called game breaking issues. There is nothing inconsistent about Drake's jumping ability. At all. The game is always clear on where to go and how to get there. I find it amazing how you can say it is inconsistent and mean it. If this was such a game breaking problem WHY DIDN'T REVIEWS SAY THIS IN THEIR REVIEWS? WHY AREN'T PEOPLE FLOODING THE NAUGHTY DOG FORUMS AND SAYING HOW BUSTED THE GAME IS? The game is a technical milestone for consoles. Did you even fucking comment on the physics of the train level? That shit is fucking impressive. But no, you'd rather spout some bullshit about inconsistent jumps and enemies with fucking health and grenade arcs.

Quote:
Edit: Oh, and I just found a potentially gamebreaking bug. I got melee'd into a wall, went THROUGH the wall, and now have clean shots at every enemy in the area but don't seem to be able to escape the wall. Trapped.
I mean look at that shit. You clearly had to have been trying for that to happen or you are the single worst Uncharted player in the world.


Quote:
- Lack of in-game notices with new "enemy" types
The fuck kind of complaint is that? You don't hear Marcus Fenix go "HEY DOM THAT GUY HAS A LOT OF ARMOR SO AIM FOR HIS HEAD OR SOMETHING, I DUNNO, GARAHRAHRAHRAHRHARHAHRAHRHAHRA HRHAHRHA". You don't hear Shepard be like "HEY GARRUS, YO THAT DUDE HAS TECH ARMOR YOU BEST LET MIRANDA TAKE THAT SHIT OFF FIRST, DAWG" because if he did it would remove any and all challenge/fun of FIGURING OUT TACTICS ON YOUR OWN.
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How dreamlike to see my x-sisters, outside the context of a Papa Song dome. They sang Papa Song’s Psalm, over and over; background hydraulics underbassed that sickening melody. But how jubilant they sounded! Their Investment was paid off. The voyage to Hawaii was under way, and their new life on Xultation would shortly begin... Watching them from the hangway, I envied their certainty about the future.

Last edited by Don Chipotle; 01-09-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 01-09-2011   #27
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Originally Posted by Don Chipotlé View Post
Funny how you are the only fucking person on the god damn planet who has these so-called game breaking issues. There is nothing inconsistent about Drake's jumping ability. At all. The game is always clear on where to go and how to get there. I find it amazing how you can say it is inconsistent and mean it. If this was such a game breaking problem WHY DIDN'T REVIEWS SAY THIS IN THEIR REVIEWS? WHY AREN'T PEOPLE FLOODING THE NAUGHTY DOG FORUMS AND SAYING HOW BUSTED THE GAME IS? The game is a technical milestone for consoles. Did you even fucking comment on the physics of the train level? That shit is fucking impressive. But no, you'd rather spout some bullshit about inconsistent jumps and enemies with fucking health and grenade arcs.
Which train level, the one that felt like some kinda modern take on a cheesy western, or the wreck segment? Both were impressive in their own ways, sure, and the one time I almost sell off the train, I was amused to see Drake's feet touching the ground and him basically trying to run backwards so as to not let himself get dragged off, very nice touch. I didn't like either of them particularly much for different reasons per level (My main issue with the train level was that although I didn't seem to spot any recurring scenery, meaning they did map a long level for this which is impressive, the fact was that the train signals had nothing to do with location in scenery but location on the train. There were no crossings, either. Those train signal things were blatantly put there for the sole purpose of knocking the player off at certain points.)


But I digress. Let's go over this post from the top.


Let's take a look at the jumping.


Game wants you to go somewhere Scenario: Drake makes it.

Drake
Platform
**********************
**********************
**********************Ledge

Game doesn't want you to go there scenario: Drake dies, either instadeath upon landing, or falling to his death. It should be noted that this ledge may or may not be accessible normally, and this similar scenario often applies to basically dropping from one step/handhold/inch of rope too high.

Drake
Platform
**************
**************ledge


Notice how the ledge is closer and not as far a drop. And Drake spontanously dies. Because that is not where the game wants you to go. The game is NOT always clear about where it wants you to go, otherwise this would not have been an issue. See, some places, like the Monstery level, the red bricks for climbing were a good indicator. However, when you don't SEE any red brocks you begin looking for other alternatives. "Oh, I see some by that platform, I'll jump-" *dead* And you get the idea.

Seriously, I wish I had a way to record this instadeath 10 foot drop thing as proof. Best I have is a shitty webcam whose quality is bad enough at close range, much less a TV on the other side of the room.

As for why I'm not posting this at the Naughty Dog forums, it's because of the law of the Lion's Den. In other words, I won't post something negative about something in the forum dedicated to it, lest the entire internet label me a troll. Sometimes it's about showing a degree of class (For example: while I may dislike Musician X, you won't see me on their fanpage to start anything) and other times it's flat out "why bother?."

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Originally Posted by Don Chipotlé View Post
I mean look at that shit. You clearly had to have been trying for that to happen or you are the single worst Uncharted player in the world.
Here's the full scenario of where it happened, why, and how:

 click to show



Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Chipotlé View Post
The fuck kind of complaint is that? You don't hear Marcus Fenix go "HEY DOM THAT GUY HAS A LOT OF ARMOR SO AIM FOR HIS HEAD OR SOMETHING, I DUNNO, GARAHRAHRAHRAHRHARHAHRAHRHAHRA HRHAHRHA". You don't hear Shepard be like "HEY GARRUS, YO THAT DUDE HAS TECH ARMOR YOU BEST LET MIRANDA TAKE THAT SHIT OFF FIRST, DAWG" because if he did it would remove any and all challenge/fun of FIGURING OUT TACTICS ON YOUR OWN.
You know those info tutorials at the start, like "to stealth attack, do this?" Would have been nice to have one saying how to kill them by running on them. I wouldn't have ever noticed that if I hadn't been reading the medals. Yes, there's an on screen button prompt if they're downed and you're close enough, but the odds of letting yourself get that close are slim, unless you're specifically aiming for that style of kill.
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Old 01-09-2011   #28
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Which train level, the one that felt like some kinda modern take on a cheesy western

isthistrolling.gif

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There were no crossings, either. Those train signal things were blatantly put there for the sole purpose of knocking the player off at certain points
Not true at all.


Quote:
The game is NOT always clear about where it wants you to go
YES IT IS. JUST LIKE IT IS IN THE NEW PRINCE OF PERSIA GAMES. JESUS FUCK.

Quote:
As for why I'm not posting this at the Naughty Dog forums, it's because of the law of the Lion's Den. In other words, I won't post something negative about something in the forum dedicated to it, lest the entire internet label me a troll
Or because you know that they will agree with me in everything. Because I am right and it isn't the game's fault. There is no fucking inconsistency with Drake's jump. Holy fucking god I wish I could literally hit you. Motherfucking watch some god damn dev diaries jesus fucking christ i am filled with so much hatred right now

Quote:
You know those info tutorials at the start, like "to stealth attack, do this?"
That was only there BECAUSE IT WAS A TOTALLY NEW FEATURE TO THE GAME

Quote:
Would have been nice to have one saying how to kill them by running on them.
Do you WANT games to constantly hold your hand? That would be a TERRIBLE IDEA AND YOU ARE TERRIBLE FOR THINKING IT IS A GOOD IDEA.

Quote:
Drake
Platform
**********************
**********************
**********************Ledge

Game doesn't want you to go there scenario: Drake dies, either instadeath upon landing, or falling to his death. It should be noted that this ledge may or may not be accessible normally, and this similar scenario often applies to basically dropping from one step/handhold/inch of rope too high.

Drake
Platform
**************
**************ledge


Notice how the ledge is closer and not as far a drop. And Drake spontanously dies.
how are any of these 'inconsistencies' oh wait they aren't and you are seriously looking for reasons to bitch about the game because you didn't jump properly. if this was a legitimate issue people would have brought it up in 2009 when the game came out. they didn't. because it was not a problem that existed. you are the only one i have seen have a problem with the way vertical and horizontal movement works in the context of aerial aerobics. the game is always clear about where to go. it isn't a fucking open path game, stop trying to break linearity and bitching about inconsistent jumps. did you ever stop to fucking think that drake died not because of 'inconsistency' but because you were going the wrong fucking way? and if you can't figure out where to go and how to get there, that is your problem.


and then you blame the television so really the problem isn't the game. it is you. like i said.



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Old 01-09-2011   #29
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You know what the funny part is? If everyone else hates it, odds are I'd end up giving it a good score. Not because I'm being difficult, but because if I go in expecting a bad experience, my expectations will be lower.
And this is totally OK for a "critic" to do? And you don't get why nobody respects you? For fuck's sake, man, learn the difference between subjective and objective already.

Here's the real problem with you: You come off as a whiny brat. Every fucking time you open your mouth, it's to complain about how a minor glitch (which is simply a fact of gaming - every game ever made has glitches) or something equally as trivial makes a well-liked game into an overrated mess.

You also grade games on a totally different scale than anyone else, and while yours honestly makes more sense you have to understand that a 7/10 is considered an "average" game by everyone else's standards, not a 5/10.

I'm trying not to read this thread because game mechanics are just as much spoilers for me as character deaths, so sorry if anything seems out of context.
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Old 01-09-2011   #30
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Games should not be rated on a 10 point system. It is way easier to judge 'average' on a 5 point scale. This is why movies are typically on a 4 star scale. Games should also not be assigned letter grades. 5 point scale, guys, come on. None of those 'point' ratings either unless someone can say what makes a 4.7 game better than a 4.6 game.
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How dreamlike to see my x-sisters, outside the context of a Papa Song dome. They sang Papa Song’s Psalm, over and over; background hydraulics underbassed that sickening melody. But how jubilant they sounded! Their Investment was paid off. The voyage to Hawaii was under way, and their new life on Xultation would shortly begin... Watching them from the hangway, I envied their certainty about the future.
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