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Old 10-20-2010   #71
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Originally Posted by Lubba View Post
Cool, so in FF6, you wanna give Relm Blitzes?
What, no, I never said I WANT all characters to be perfect clones of each other. What a game would ideally have is unique characters with unique abilities that all have access to the same secondary abilities that, when combined with their unique abilities, changes the game in an incredible way. Like FFIV DS.

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If my PS2 was actually hooked up, I'd turn FFXII on and give some gambit examples. Needless to say, I had the game on autopilot with insane strategies involving perpetual magic casting (Osmose on non undead enemies when low on MP, charge when enemies are undead) complete with Oil + Firaga, buffs, ailments, the works, using all 12 gambit slots for each character. I had contingency plans for every occurrence (Foe = Undead: Attack being on top of Self HP < ??: Drain, for instance) and believe me, I'm a good tactician.
FFXII's gambits really aren't complex enough that they're worth bragging about like that (though it may be my seething hatred for the game that's downplaying the gambits, and by the way my hatred of the game comes from how the characters really ARE perfect clones of each other.) If you want to talk about complex strategies and set-ups then you want to talk about...

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Yvl, you play WoW, right?
Oh hey look at that, what a coincidence!

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(As is, It kinda sickens me that I hear hybrids are as good as pures in their respective categories now. A Ret Paladin should not match a warrior for DPS, just like a Holy Paladin should not match a priest for heals, etc)
They do have what they call a "hybrid tax" where the devs do their best (but often fail) to make hybrids deal a bit less damage than us purebred DPS classes. But Warriors are hybrids too, fyi, tanks and DPS. And there are no pure heal or tank classes; every class has a DPS spec, so the hybrid tax is inapplicable to tanks and healers. However, all of this is besides the point, because you can only be one spec at a time, and you're not going to make many friends by trying to dps as a Holy Paladin.

As for the point you were trying to make, I don't think it applies now that I've clarified my stance on uniqueness.

And it's funny you should bring up WoW, because it, along with Dragon Age, made me really understand what's so shitty about FFIX. Take the armor bonus I have on right now, for example: "Tricks of the Trade (which transfers threat and gives an ally a damage bonus) now gives you 15 energy instead of costing you 15 energy." This is an amazing bonus! I mean, holy shit, if I see that somewhere when I'm just getting started on raiding, that really gives me something to shoot for because goddamn that's a great ability, especially for the energy-starved specs! And hey, since it's giving me extra energy, then I should have enough time to change my rotation slightly to give myself a few hundred more DPS... ooh and now that Glyph of Tricks of the Trade is looking a whole lot more useful now that it's not an energy drain... and man this has just revitalized my class, as well as the game as a whole for me!

Now compare that to anything you get in FFIX. Even the late game equipment you get doesn't give you anything to get excited over, and hell I dont think there's ANYTHING unique to endgame except for like one or two spells and summons that are the same thing you already know 20 of. It's just more of the same, beginning to end.

Between WoW, Dragon Age, and Persona 3, it recently became clear to me just what it is, more than anything, that makes or breaks an RPG's battle system: "How much does it make you want that next level?" Well, this is only my opinion, of course, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would prefer a flat, unchanging game to one like what I'm describing.
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Old 10-20-2010   #72
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Originally Posted by Yvl View Post
What, no, I never said I WANT all characters to be perfect clones of each other. What a game would ideally have is unique characters with unique abilities that all have access to the same secondary abilities that, when combined with their unique abilities, changes the game in an incredible way. Like FFIV DS.
We're in perfect agreement, then.

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FFXII's gambits really aren't complex enough that they're worth bragging about like that (though it may be my seething hatred for the game that's downplaying the gambits, and by the way my hatred of the game comes from how the characters really ARE perfect clones of each other.) If you want to talk about complex strategies and set-ups then you want to talk about...
Right, if anything, gambits just cut down on time micromanaging, as all that could be done manually anyways. My point was that even when given clones, which in this case you agree with me that this game IS an example of how perfect clones suck, I can formulate good tactics. It's not like I can only play when given everything, but I prefer characters to have assigned roles given in the game.

This is actually one of the reasons I love the Tales series so much; everyone has a differing combat style right down to their basic attack combos, not even getting into skills. As well, designated hybrids (Like Kratos, Anise, and Raven, to name examples from Tales game of the past decade) don't have the raw power as the pure classes. For example, Kratos loses to Lloyd and Presea in Melee, Genis in offensive magic, and Raine in healing magic, but he can do all 3 roles decently to an extent, making him versatile but not gamebreaking like the way FF clones can be.

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Oh hey look at that, what a coincidence!
Contrary to popular belief, I do like WoW. I only quit since I got too into it and Leigh made me quit. I was becoming a real jerk, taking offense to people saying "my pet can tank!" and being assigned to healing duty as a PROTECTION PALADIN. At the time, when Prot Pally damage was all about getting as many enemies on you as you could and reflecting damage, telling me to not tank was effectively telling me to GTFO, and yes, I did take personal offense to it, even though we were level 43 and it's not like Scarlet Monastary or that troll place in Tanaris I forget the name of REQUIRES a full plate tank in the way the endgame does. I'd love to get back into it when I'm more financially stable, but I'm also not sure how I feel about some of the changes to classes I've heard about. I mean, prot paladins being more proactive than reactive now? Basically ruined it for me. I'd likely play an enhancement shaman if I got back into it.

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They do have what they call a "hybrid tax" where the devs do their best (but often fail) to make hybrids deal a bit less damage than us purebred DPS classes. But Warriors are hybrids too, fyi, tanks and DPS. And there are no pure heal or tank classes; every class has a DPS spec, so the hybrid tax is inapplicable to tanks and healers. However, all of this is besides the point, because you can only be one spec at a time, and you're not going to make many friends by trying to dps as a Holy Paladin.
Aah, see, I misunderstood my friend. I thought she was implying that 3-way hybrids (like Paladins, Shamans, or Druids) were the "hybrids" she was referring to. For example, while a warrior can DPS and Tank, 2 of the 3 specs are just differnt ways to DPS (I think one was better for PvE and one for PvP?) whereas a Paladin can heal on top of it, so should suffer a DPS penalty (keep in mind, I played when the 3 types of Paladins were Tankadin, Healadin, and Retardin. Apparently ret is kickass now, which makes my brain explode)

I suppose I should have considered that she was referring more to rogues and mages as "pures" (considering that the rogue specs involve either amage output or stealth which leads to damage output, and mages mostly had different attacks when I played, very little support beyond an ice summon and freezing enemies/ revealing stealthed enemies) and comparing the 3 way hybrids to the 2 way hybrids. That sounds a lot more balanced, I approve.

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As for the point you were trying to make, I don't think it applies now that I've clarified my stance on uniqueness.
I was misinformed on this. We're quite in agreement here, so no worries.

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And it's funny you should bring up WoW, because it, along with Dragon Age, made me really understand what's so shitty about FFIX. Take the armor bonus I have on right now, for example: "Tricks of the Trade (which transfers threat and gives an ally a damage bonus) now gives you 15 energy instead of costing you 15 energy." This is an amazing bonus! I mean, holy shit, if I see that somewhere when I'm just getting started on raiding, that really gives me something to shoot for because goddamn that's a great ability, especially for the energy-starved specs! And hey, since it's giving me extra energy, then I should have enough time to change my rotation slightly to give myself a few hundred more DPS... ooh and now that Glyph of Tricks of the Trade is looking a whole lot more useful now that it's not an energy drain... and man this has just revitalized my class, as well as the game as a whole for me!

Now compare that to anything you get in FFIX. Even the late game equipment you get doesn't give you anything to get excited over, and hell I dont think there's ANYTHING unique to endgame except for like one or two spells and summons that are the same thing you already know 20 of. It's just more of the same, beginning to end.
Well, it's Final Fantasy, what did you expect? The series has kind of always been that way. Can you really say that FFVII or VIII has ever given you something new and awesome that re-eenergized the game for you? I beat them both, and I can say, I haven't.

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Between WoW, Dragon Age, and Persona 3, it recently became clear to me just what it is, more than anything, that makes or breaks an RPG's battle system: "How much does it make you want that next level?" Well, this is only my opinion, of course, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would prefer a flat, unchanging game to one like what I'm describing.
I wouldn't say it the exact same way, but I agree on some points. Here's the thing though. In games like Dragon Age, you start a new file with nothing and it can be kinda meh until you get the fun skills. And once you do, you get used to them. Then you restart and crap! They're gone! This is why I love NewGame+ when done right (resets levels to default, keep skills, at the bare minimum) as yes, it does let you carry over things that made the game fun, but you don't have an abundant amount of MP/Mana/Energy/SP/etc to actively USE these abilities. (Example: In ToS, Genis starts with enough MP for one use of a high level spell, byt then he's out. He doesn't have hundreds of TP like in the endgame)
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Old 10-20-2010   #73
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Well, it's Final Fantasy, what did you expect? The series has kind of always been that way. Can you really say that FFVII or VIII has ever given you something new and awesome that re-eenergized the game for you? I beat them both, and I can say, I haven't.





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Old 10-20-2010   #74
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actually tried that once. Good thing I saved first, because she died like a dog. It's a great idea in theory, to maximize damage output, but she's just too squishy to make it work for parties of more than 2 enemies. BUT, I do admit, I never thought of trying brace on her.Might be worth a try, if I ever find my DS.
Well, I never said it's a GOOD idea, but she's the second most viable Draw Attacks/Counter combo candidate in the game, since Edge and Kain would just be inferior Cecils. Only problem with Brace is you need to actively use it to have an effect, so you may consider it with auto-battle. It is nonetheless a decent strategy that can help her pump out damaging spells with no casting time, or (even better) use the Stardust Rod with no casting time (add item lore for extra effect, though this would mean foregoing Dualcast if its a first playthrough).

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Well, this is only my opinion, of course,
Keep this in mind. When you go around spouting how games suck, without qualifying it to some extent (and you often go do the opposite and insist they universally suck), you're no better than Droog. The same Droog we hate. The same Droog we loathe. The same Droog we shall someday bloody our hands by killing. Think about that for a moment. I'm sure you'd leap at the chance to become the very monster you hate, but c'mon, man, at least choose a better one than DROOG.
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Old 10-20-2010   #75
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I was becoming a real jerk, taking offense to people saying "my pet can tank!" and being assigned to healing duty as a PROTECTION PALADIN
But you SHOULD be upset about those things, as the people who you were encountering were in the most advanced stages of retardation.

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(keep in mind, I played when the 3 types of Paladins were Tankadin, Healadin, and Retardin.
Still are.

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Apparently ret is kickass now, which makes my brain explode)
Anything you've heard or experienced in regards to classes in WoW is outdated as of last Tuesday. And I'm assuming that's when you heard/experienced anything, because *I* haven't finished sorting everything out since the new patch.



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Well, it's Final Fantasy, what did you expect? The series has kind of always been that way. Can you really say that FFVII or VIII has ever given you something new and awesome that re-eenergized the game for you? I beat them both, and I can say, I haven't.
FFVIII absolutely did, or would have if not for the cramped menu. Each new GF gives you a whole slew of new possible abilities, refine options, etc.

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Keep this in mind. When you go around spouting how games suck, without qualifying it to some extent (and you often go do the opposite and insist they universally suck), you're no better than Droog. The same Droog we hate. The same Droog we loathe. The same Droog we shall someday bloody our hands by killing. Think about that for a moment. I'm sure you'd leap at the chance to become the very monster you hate, but c'mon, man, at least choose a better one than DROOG.
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Old 10-20-2010   #76
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Originally Posted by Lancet Jades View Post
Keep this in mind. When you go around spouting how games suck, without qualifying it to some extent (and you often go do the opposite and insist they universally suck), you're no better than Droog. The same Droog we hate. The same Droog we loathe. The same Droog we shall someday bloody our hands by killing. Think about that for a moment. I'm sure you'd leap at the chance to become the very monster you hate, but c'mon, man, at least choose a better one than DROOG.
For some reason this had me giggling.

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But you SHOULD be upset about those things, as the people who you were encountering were in the most advanced stages of retardation.
Like I said though, for an easay instance like Scarlet Monastery? The most serious person in my guild was telling me to lighten up over this. In the endgame I'd be like "Kick this moronic twit" but until about level 50 or so, apparently instances are easy enough that a shaman or hunter can tank, or so I was told.I mean, one party we had was 2 Tauren with greatswords, my Blood Elf Prot Paladin, a rogue, and a Priest. I was like "Cool, I'll tank" and the tauren wwere all "lolno we have more HP." I told them that They were still using chain, whereas I had plate (I was farming for gold) and they didn't even have shields, they just laughed in my face and insisted they tank. And apparently everyone I knew said I was in the wrong about being angry that I was effectively useless since my entire strategy revolved around reflected damage.

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Still are.
Just making sure that you realized that my emphasis was on RETARDin and not RETribution. Because I actually coined that term in my server back in the BC days. A good friend of mine and her boyfriend swear by Ret Paladins, and she was always a cool girl who picked the more awesome classes in other games we played.

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Anything you've heard or experienced in regards to classes in WoW is outdated as of last Tuesday. And I'm assuming that's when you heard/experienced anything, because *I* haven't finished sorting everything out since the new patch.
Let me know if it's any good. Been kinda considering getting back into it if I get a new job and have spare income.

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FFVIII absolutely did, or would have if not for the cramped menu. Each new GF gives you a whole slew of new possible abilities, refine options, etc.
*shrugs* I honestly never found any GF abilities that were particularly useful except for card, level up, and level down. I mean hey, people laugh at me for using summons, and when I find summons to be more useful than their abilities, yeah >_<
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Old 10-20-2010   #77
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Like I said though, for an easay instance like Scarlet Monastery? The most serious person in my guild was telling me to lighten up over this
If someone says that their pet can tank, they are a retard, and you have every reason to be upset. They're what we call "huntards" and are universally loathed from level 1 on. Telling you to heal as a tankadin is infuriating as well, but a moot point nowadays since people just use the auto-group finder now, which assigns a role to each member.

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Just making sure that you realized that my emphasis was on RETARDin and not RETribution. Because I actually coined that term in my server back in the BC days. A good friend of mine and her boyfriend swear by Ret Paladins, and she was always a cool girl who picked the more awesome classes in other games we played.
I've never heard them called anything but retardin since I joined. I don't think you coined the term.

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Let me know if it's any good. Been kinda considering getting back into it if I get a new job and have spare income.
My class/spec is fucking outstanding, but I still don't know how other classes are faring (except Warriors, who were nerfed to all hell unintentionally). It won't be until December that everything is worked out enough for anyone to know if it's any good.

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*shrugs* I honestly never found any GF abilities that were particularly useful except for card, level up, and level down. I mean hey, people laugh at me for using summons, and when I find summons to be more useful than their abilities, yeah >_<
Huh, summons were awesome, if for nothing else than the glee you get from breaking your boost record. And Doomtrain.
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Old 10-20-2010   #78
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Take Zidane's identical trance abilities that you select from a menu, compared to Vincent's transform ability, or Selphie's slot ability, or Squall's Renozuken.

...

"I'm poisoned, use antidote" really is more of an annoyance than a strategy to me. Especially when it only works on you, and never on bosses. "This enemy takes increased poison damage but not much damage from anything else," now that's a fucking strategy. Dunno if that's from anything.
What FF9 lacks in unique trance abilities, it makes up for in plot coherence. Even so, there is some variation among the Trances of the characters. And switching out menu items for sequences with button prompts doesn't exactly make a Limit Break anything special.

The fact that antidotes are an annoyance is a challenge to the player to adapt a new strategy to better suit him in combat (i.e. equipping a poison resistance ability).

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If a vanilla JRPG is what you're looking for, then we're not going to get anywhere by discussing this any further, cuz that's the absolute last thing I'd ever want in a game.
I don't see how your personal desires for qualities in a game play into this. FF7, 8, and 9 are all vanilla JRPGs. All of them iterations of the same game design principles. If you agree that they are all vanilla, then why bother making distinctions?

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Much, much, much lesser. Seriously, I don't understand the complaints of clones in X. With the exception of Kimahri, the sphere grid system just gives you the option of bleeding into other characters' grids, and that's only after you've grinded past what's necessary or expected to complete the normal course of the game.
I mean, there's nothing technically wrong with all the characters ending up with the same attributes. But if that's the case, then why differentiate them in the first place? Ultimately, the differences between the characters are arbitrary.
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Old 10-20-2010   #79
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;404289]What FF9 lacks in unique trance abilities, it makes up for in plot coherence. Even so, there is some variation among the Trances of the characters. And switching out menu items for sequences with button prompts doesn't exactly make a Limit Break anything special.

The fact that antidotes are an annoyance is a challenge to the player to adapt a new strategy to better suit him in combat (i.e. equipping a poison resistance ability).
Just so you know, I'm fairly sure (if not outright positive) that he does like FF9's plot, but feels the battle system drags the game down too much for the plot to save it.

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Originally Posted by [PhiberOpticks
;404289]I mean, there's nothing technically wrong with all the characters ending up with the same attributes. But if that's the case, then why differentiate them in the first place? Ultimately, the differences between the characters are arbitrary.
They aren't arbitrary for the majority of the game, save for people who grind to unholy levels before the endgame. Forcing a character down another's path for most of the game is itself a difficult task (and will often require knowing where to get the correct teleporting spheres, and the knowledge it is possible at all; something above a "normal" player, especially first time), much less making them all the same. When you get to endgame, maxing everyone out, and so forth, any and all coherent, rational arguments about game balance fall apart faster than physics in faster-than-light travel (for similar reasons, no doubt).

Endgame is one thing, but the primary importance is the meat of the game, the beginning through 90-99% through (wherever "endgame" kicks in). FF10 retains pretty damn good individuality of characters, their stats skills, right up until you get the airship. Making them into something they aren't carries the heavy price of not only knowing and acquiring the means to do so, but also requires surrendering what they still could've been (at least until endgame). Switching Yuna over to Auron's path may actually make her physically powerful, but it'll cost you a white mage, unless you switch say, Rikku to white mage, in which case you're sans a thief (although her specific skills past steal and use are not of the greatest importance, except in endgame).

And if you switch, you'll probably either teleport to an activated node of another character's, which carries two choices:
a: Start at or near the beginning, and settle for mediocre stat gains for a while, in exchange for getting the starter abilities that form their foundation as that "class."
b: Start near or at where the other character is, jumping in and getting better gains, but without the founding abilities of that person.

If you use the (I think) more common "teleport to other character's location," you're forced into b.

Getting these items during the main game is not exactly a trivial thing, much less getting enough to "jump around" enough to make everyone do everything (especially well).
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Old 10-20-2010   #80
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Originally Posted by Lancet
Just so you know, I'm fairly sure (if not outright positive) that he does like FF9's plot, but feels the battle system drags the game down too much for the plot to save it.
I just don't see how that's possible, but whatever floats his boat I guess.

I suppose the sphere system does have individualization up to a point, but that individualization and necessity to strategize is mitigated by the fact you can switch out players on a whim. If they're going to do that, why not just throw everyone out into the battle at once?
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