(360) Skullgirls - A Fighter Fan's Thoughts.

[Elisa Maza]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

You have no idea how mindblowing it is to hear that from you.

Well, it works.

[Pinkie Pie]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

I don't give a microfuck what people do in high level play unless I'm watching them fight each other. I care about me and my opponent enjoying ourselves. This is not possible in Skullgirls, because high level play is the only thing that was in their heads when they designed it.

That's not true. The game goes out of its way to bring new players up to speed, and while, yes, the AI can be brutal, those issues aren't really present in versus, and, honestly, the tough AI gives you something to practice against that you'll likely be facing against other players. The difficulty curve is sharp, but not anywhere near as insurmountable as you're making it out to be.

And, look, let's be completely honest here. Doing long combo strings in this game is a totally different beast from doing the same in, say, KoFXIII. The game is designed around doing them, and the moves and normal attacks lend themselves well to the playstyle.

If it helps (it did for me) go into Training Mode, pick out some characters, and look into the properties of each basic attack. Think of it as the characters having a boatload of Command Moves along with their Special Moves, because that's effectively what's going on.

And it made those game almost completely unplayable for newcomers to the genre (which most people were). "You have to figure out how to make your character do what you want" is a bad philosophy through and through. That's the whole barrier to entry that casual gamers had that made the Wii and the Kinect so successful.

That's overstating things a bit. As someone who did start playing fighters in the SF2 era, it wasn't that hard to catch on. Move sets were mostly simplistic, and people swapped notes on how characters moves worked. There were also gaming magazines with movelists, and the arcade machines usually had at least a handful of moves for a character displayed on the cabinet.

Now, as games progressed and picked up more and more characters and varied movelists? Yeah, it could be a little intimidating. But by then people started making movelist FAQs online and the like. Going out of game to get the movelist is nothing new, it's just something that to my knowledge hasn't been done in a while. It's not "bad" that it does it (is it really that big a deal to go download the .pdf from the site?). Inconvenient, maybe, but it's not really a problem worth any more than a nod to acknowledge it exists.

Even if the movelist didn't exist at all (that wouldn't last long anyways, you can bet GameFAQs and the like are going to get movelist FAQs up at some point even with there being an external source already present and an internal source on the way), it wouldn't be that bad, it would simply make it even more necessary to spend time in Training than it already is. None of the characters have particularly complex movesets.

It's almost definitely the fact that they're throwing you in with no meaningful tutorial that is giving me such a different experience from you guys. You were able to play fighters in their first coming, I was not, for the same reasons I can't play Skullgirls. And this game really does feel like an unpolished SNES era fighter to me, for all intents and purposes.

The tutorial is incredibly meaningful. It covers every aspect of fighter systems, including an awful lot of concepts that usually leave new players scratching their heads and trying to look up a glossary. That is far more important a thing to include as a tutorial than teaching specific combos. I said it'd be a nice addition to see something teaching at least one basic combo per character, but I wouldn't trade the tutorial presently in the game for it. Hell, I'd love them to take out the combo tutorials in KoF and SF in favor of Skullgirl's tutorial system if it had to be a choice between the two.

Lemme rephrase. There aren't enough characters in the game for them to be similar at all. The game loses points for variety by only having 8 characters, which it could overcome by having larger and more varied move lists, but even that is only passable.

I'm genuinely confused about what you want out of the characters other than just a larger roster. More complexity to the move lists? That would heighten the barrier to entry, which you just said you didn't want.

The move lists are simplistic, and most characters use the same inputs for their moves. That's not a bad thing, especially with the system set up as it is. The characters certainly don't play the same even with those similar move inputs, though.

Also: All of the characters I've played are completely vulnerable after using a special attack, and unable to continue any combos that may have been going on.

That's why you combo into them and cancel out of them, when possible, and end either with safe moves that you can immediately block following or ones that knock your opponent away far enough for you to recover (Supers/Blockbusters are good for this if you can pull them off).

This has not been my experience at all. I almost have to wonder if we're playing entirely different games. Or characters.

There is literally only one combo I can get to work with Valentine: poke -> MP x3 -> HP x3 -> QCF K. Everything else I try leaves a hole open for someone to break out of my combo.

I haven't done much of anything with Valentine yet, so I don't know for certain, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't some variation to that combo that you could branch off from.

Legit question: once you get a combo to work, how do any other variables matter at all? Your opponent is completely helpless until you're finished taking your free shots at him one way or another. If you knock them in the air or keep them in the ground, how does that in any way affect how you play aside from the name of the moves you're hitting them with? The only thing I can think of is that one set may do more damage than another, but that causes there to be only one "correct" response to the situation.

Launching someone into the air can lengthen your combo, doing more damage, but it's also trickier (in my experience) to pull off. Keeping them on the ground is easier, but also less damaging and can be easier for someone to break out of or counter. Leading in with different attacks matters for trying to get through defenses also, whether an attack hits high or low, and the like.

It's not actually that different from the kinds of fighters you're used to, mix ups and hit confirming are pretty standard. It's just that the length of the combos for pretty much all of the characters can go on for much longer. Think of it as having your HD meter on constantly in KoF, only instead of chaining specials together, you're chaining normal moves and working specials in where you can.

You aren't wrong for not liking the game if you don't like it. If it doesn't mesh with your tastes, then that's totally your prerogative (I do honestly think you could get into it once you can make the shift in the mindset of how you approach the game, I had to do the same before I really started getting it to any degree). That said, the game doesn't have to be bad to justify your not enjoying it. It can just be a game you don't enjoy if that's the case.

[Yvlla]

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

That's overstating things a bit. As someone who did start playing fighters in the SF2 era, it wasn't that hard to catch on. Move sets were mostly simplistic, and people swapped notes on how characters moves worked. There were also gaming magazines with movelists, and the arcade machines usually had at least a handful of moves for a character displayed on the cabinet.

I had none of that. Just randomly mashing buttons while other people smugly beat me up, refusing to share their secrets. And I was getting the same feeling here (leading me to be extremely irritable when responding), hence why I asked for advice instead of criticisms of my opinion and/or understanding of the game.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

Even if the movelist didn't exist at all (that wouldn't last long anyways, you can bet GameFAQs and the like are going to get movelist FAQs up at some point even with there being an external source already present and an internal source on the way), it wouldn't be that bad, it would simply make it even more necessary to spend time in Training than it already is. None of the characters have particularly complex movesets.

If it's not in the game, I can't give credit for it. I know this is an impractical way of judging. The normal attacks aren't listed in the manual anyway, leading me to think that maybe I missed one or two while experimenting.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

The tutorial is incredibly meaningful. It covers every aspect of fighter systems, including an awful lot of concepts that usually leave new players scratching their heads and trying to look up a glossary. That is far more important a thing to include as a tutorial than teaching specific combos.

I can give it credit for this much. But I don't want to learn how to play every other fighter, I want to learn how to play THIS fighter.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

I'm genuinely confused about what you want out of the characters other than just a larger roster. More complexity to the move lists? That would heighten the barrier to entry, which you just said you didn't want.

It would sound like it would heighten the barrier to entry. But having more freedom makes things easier, not harder, to get into (mastering it is another story). Right now it feels like I haven't found that one magic combo that actually makes the game playable, and that I've tried damn near everything to find it. Which, again, could just be Valentine sucking.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

That said, the game doesn't have to be bad to justify your not enjoying it. It can just be a game you don't enjoy if that's the case.

The fact I can't fathom in the slightest what anyone could see in this game right now makes it hard for me to see the game as anything but bad. I'm normally able to see the appeal of games that I don't like. And it's legitimately upsetting me that I can't even see what makes it likable.

[Elisa Maza]

Not really asked by anyone, but I figured I'd post this here anyway. If you want a comprehensive movelist for all the characters that covers all their attacks from normals to specials to supers, as well as combo options, damage listings, move properties and notes, try here: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls Just click on the character you want the info about.

Maybe it'd help. Maybe it won't. I don't know. Can't hurt to check it out.

[Pinkie Pie]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

I had none of that. Just randomly mashing buttons while other people smugly beat me up, refusing to share their secrets. And I was getting the same feeling here (leading me to be extremely irritable when responding), hence why I asked for advice instead of criticisms of my opinion and/or understanding of the game.

I am sorry that was your experience. I was lucky enough that I had a few friends who thought it was really cool that I was interested in the games, so I had help when I started getting into fighters overall. I've been trying to give advice during the course of this discussion also. I can't explicitly tell you what to do with Valentine because I haven't played her, but I can tell you more generic ideas based on what I have done. Which is to go into training mode and just try things out until you start finding things that work, paying attention to what moves do and how you can chain them together.

If it's not in the game, I can't give credit for it. I know this is an impractical way of judging. The normal attacks aren't listed in the manual anyway, leading me to think that maybe I missed one or two while experimenting.

The normal attacks aren't listed in the movelists mostly because it would become unnecessarily bloated if they did without providing any real information. Everyone has the same LK/MK/HK/LP/MP/HP buttons with crouching and air alternatives, giving the names for the attacks that occur when you push them wouldn't really give you a good idea of what they do, you'd still need to just try it out.

The Shoryuken wiki Kimiko linked to gives really good extra info about the damage everything does and the properties they have, which is way more information than I've ever seen included in an official movelist, in-game or out, so I don't think it's fair to criticize them for not including that information, since nobody else does it either. It'd be nice if they did, but it doesn't make them bad for not doing it.

I can give it credit for this much. But I don't want to learn how to play every other fighter, I want to learn how to play THIS fighter.

I really don't mean to sound obnoxious, but you might want to play through the tutorial again, at least the later lessons. It gives very good advice and practice for the style of the game. The only thing it doesn't do is give you explicit combos for characters other than the ones in the individual lessons. The rest of the tutorial also fully applies to the game as well (mix ups, hit confirming, canceling, OTG moves, and air launches are all important concepts for getting the combos to work).

It would sound like it would heighten the barrier to entry. But having more freedom makes things easier, not harder, to get into (mastering it is another story). Right now it feels like I haven't found that one magic combo that actually makes the game playable, and that I've tried damn near everything to find it. Which, again, could just be Valentine sucking.

If the characters normal moves didn't have so much going on, I'd agree with you. If it was a case of low kick just being a low kick always for any character, medium kick being a medium kick, and so on, then yeah, increasing the complexity of the movelist wouldn't be a bad idea (it wouldn't necessarily be a terrible idea even with things as they are, but it would definitely complicate things). But as it is, a lot of the normal attacks are effectively one-button special moves as it is. Valentine's already got one of the more complex move sets out of the characters.

Again, I haven't played as Valentine yet, so I could be totally off on this, but from what I've seen, there's a lot of potential for her to do things with her poisons. Each color does something different, and just looking at the move list, two of them can be devastating to the other player. The green one increases hit stun by a significant amount, which gives you a larger window of time to continue combos, (which I've been on the receiving end of, and ow). The orange one (which I've yet to be hit with, but it sounds pretty brutal) gives the opponent input lag, making it more difficult for them to pull off their own moves and combos while they're affected by it.

The downside is that it has setup time, and once you toss the needle, it's gone, so my suggestion would be trying to work out a good and consistent way to hit confirm into it with a combo, or saving it as a punish when you know it will hit.

I'll try out Valentine in the near future (tonight, probably, since I only really have two days left to play before I don't have the system anymore), and I'll let you know more details if I find anything.

I don't want you to think that I (or anyone else, but I can only really speak for myself) am trying to keep you in the dark so you can't get good. I'd love for you to enjoy the system and get a good handle on it, because you're fun to play against whether it ends in a win or a loss for me.

Originally Posted by Kimiko

Not really asked by anyone, but I figured I'd post this here anyway. If you want a comprehensive movelist for all the characters that covers all their attacks from normals to specials to supers, as well as combo options, damage listings, move properties and notes, try here: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls Just click on the character you want the info about.

Maybe it'd help. Maybe it won't. I don't know. Can't hurt to check it out.

I don't know why I hadn't gone there before now, since I knew the site existed, but that's awesome information that I've actually been looking for since starting with the game, so thanks a bunch for that. It's an excellent resource.

[Don Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

And Bioware is on record for saying that Mass Effect 3's ending is revolutionary and depends on the decisions you made in all 3 games. And several billionaires are on record for saying that they don't think they're much better off than normal people. There's such a thing as being delusional, or full of shit, you know.

Except that yeah, Skullgirls has a lower barrier to entry than most fighting games on the market and is easy for new players to pick up on the basic mechanics. They may not be busting out the insane combos, but they'll do better than if they were suddenly thrust into something like an MvC or a SF with no instruction on how things work. In that regard, yes, the game is made for people of all skill. And for the record, Mass Effect 3's ending is revolutionary in that it nearly caused a revolution. And to some extent your past choices do change the ending, inasmuch as it changes which ending you can see. So how about that, mister Bioware boycotter. Zap. Zap.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

Strange how you don't feel that way about Final Fantasy 4.
Really, SF2 has not aged wel

I disagree. SF2 may not be the intricate devil that is SF3, but SF2 turbo is still very much a good fighting game. There's a simplicity to it that hides its deeper mechanics. Final Fantasy 4 is just a turd, though. A nice smelling turd, but a turd.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

No, I mean plain old special attacks. All two of them.

Characters have more than two specials and more than one way to use said special and that is also where cancelling comes into play and also it would be unbalanced if a character can just fling out specials with little to no penalty involved. That's how hadouken spam was an issue.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

I'd dislike the game on principle regardless, because combo heavy games are silly, for reasons I've repeatedly mentioned before. It's the frustration of everyone being able to somehow figure out combos while all mine fall apart midway that makes me hate it.

Even games with character specific tutorials don't teach you the intricacies of that character or all their combo options. That takes the fun out of learning your character and their matchups and their combo potential. Even SC5 only gives you like 5 BnB combos and nothing else. Maybe it is because you are unable to do a lot of local matches, but playing local matches against people of various skill really helped me learn the ins and outs of Painwheel, and I'm still learning things. I mean, I assume you weren't good at KoF as soon as you got it, right? You don't have to utilize combos to achieve victory in Skullgirls, but you have to do more than just poke.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

So here's a thought: How about instead of beating me over the head with how I'm wrong about this game, that you actually show me how in the everliving fuck you people are able to enjoy it?

Because I think it is a fun game that could have some legs once they fix some things that were issues due to their small staff, limited resources, and deadline. I like the smaller roster because it is easier to learn match ups. I like the art deco style and the smooth jazz. I like the fishmen in the background. But mostly I think you and I judge fighting games on different merits.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

That's not true. The game goes out of its way to bring new players up to speed, and while, yes, the AI can be brutal, those issues aren't really present in versus, and, honestly, the tough AI gives you something to practice against that you'll likely be facing against other players. The difficulty curve is sharp, but not anywhere near as insurmountable as you're making it out to be.

I noticed that the first fight in story mode (I've only done Parasoul's and Painwheel's) is a lot more difficult than some of the other fights in story mode. Ms. Fortune kicked my ass the first few times, but the fights after her were much more manageable. Whether that is the game or me getting better remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

Even if the movelist didn't exist at all (that wouldn't last long anyways, you can bet GameFAQs and the like are going to get movelist FAQs up at some point even with there being an external source already present and an internal source on the way), it wouldn't be that bad, it would simply make it even more necessary to spend time in Training than it already is. None of the characters have particularly complex movesets.

Hell, Shoryuken had movelists before the game even came out. Now that it is out, they are dissecting the game like a frog and posting crazy things like individual frame data. FRAME DATA.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

It would sound like it would heighten the barrier to entry. But having more freedom makes things easier, not harder, to get into (mastering it is another story). Right now it feels like I haven't found that one magic combo that actually makes the game playable, and that I've tried damn near everything to find it. Which, again, could just be Valentine sucking

The thing about Valentine is that while she is speedy and has a lot of quick combo potential, there is also the fact that she has three different poisons that do different things (one is poison, one is super stun, one makes the dude have lag input) and using those smartly greatly increases her attack potential. There's also the fact that her heart monitor super thing can hit in the air (and it also gets disrupted if Ms. Fortune's head is in the way) makes her exceptionally versatile. Valentine is all about racking up quick combos into grabs or supers. It's why she has like a really basic 8 or 9 hit combo string.

Originally Posted by Rainbow Dash

The fact I can't fathom in the slightest what anyone could see in this game right now makes it hard for me to see the game as anything but bad. I'm normally able to see the appeal of games that I don't like. And it's legitimately upsetting me that I can't even see what makes it likable.

Dude it has SMOOTH JAZZ!

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

The downside is that it has setup time, and once you toss the needle, it's gone, so my suggestion would be trying to work out a good and consistent way to hit confirm into it with a combo, or saving it as a punish when you know it will hit.

I've seen Valentine players use the poisons in very interesting ways. The input lag one is especially rough, especially with a charge character like Parasoul.

[Yvlla]

Kimiko, that's exactly what I was looking for. That answers a ton of my questions and issues.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

I really don't mean to sound obnoxious, but you might want to play through the tutorial again, at least the later lessons.

I indeed may have missed something. I'll try that when I try the game again.

Originally Posted by Pinkie Pie

The green one increases hit stun by a significant amount, which gives you a larger window of time to continue combos, (which I've been on the receiving end of, and ow).

And you keep blocking it now. Stop it ;_;

Originally Posted by Applejack

That's how hadouken spam was an issue.

Gotcha. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by Applejack

I mean, I assume you weren't good at KoF as soon as you got it, right?

Fortunately, I had someone who was willing to go easy on me to introduce me to the series, so I never felt like I was TERRIBLE at it.

I think you all have convinced me to give the game another chance. Though the game's still half-unplayable due to connection issues...