Karou. Your ass. Here. Now.

[Nickelback]

So yeah, homosexuality. A disease. Do you really think that? I mean, shit, does that apply to bisexuals as well? Because last I fucking checked, The government recently took it off their list of various mental illnesses because, GUESS WHAT, it's not.

What disturbs me more than all of this, though, is how ignorant you are that preferences is what makes up a human being, and although you may not like them, it's a common fact that you should choose to accept them or otherwise hide under a rock and say 'GO AWAY, WORLD! I LIVE HERE! I'm a little spider.'

For anyone who actually missed it, this quote was in the Shoutbox earlier:

Well they did look into if being a homo is a disease. I am hoping it is and that they find a cure fast for it. I heard that my one gay cousin said that your never a man until you take it in the ass......I will never be a man if that is true lol.

Right, and so this applies to everyone, correct? What about the other sex? Are Lesbians afflicted with this 'disease'? I'm pretty sure they are seeing as how you blanketed it with a generalization. I'm pretty sure you weren't thinking about that when you opened you big fucking mouth without thinking, yet AGAIN.

Seriously, I thought you couldn't get more ignorant. And don't pass it off as a joke because I'm fucking sure that it wasn't. That's nice that hetero people are the only ones who aren't mentally ill, according to you.

You fucking make me sick.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

So yeah, homosexuality. A disease. Do you really think that? I mean, shit, does that apply to bisexuals as well? Because last I fucking checked, The government recently took it off their list of various mental illnesses because, GUESS WHAT, it's not.For the record, that was just the Pentagon, who said they only had it listed with other mental disorders for convenience, due to their "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The APA removed it from their own list back in the 70's, but even that decision was political, not scientific. Even thirty years later there haven't been any significant studies on the matter because people tend to descend with righteous fury whenever the topic's even mentioned, let alone poked and prodded.

Other than that, I'm pretty sure Kaoru's been banned from the Gates.

[Kurbee]

I mean, seriously Kaoru.
Was it necessary to say that?

I mean, there are plenty of people you could offend by saying that.

No, I am not gay, but I have PLENTY of gay friends, and my sister is bisexual. So, you are doing the one thing that pisses me off more than anything, and talking shit about my sister.

Seriously, get your views straight.
It's not a fucking disease, It's a way of life.

Get. Over. It.

[Applejack]

Even though I am gay, I was not offended by his statements. I merely facepalmed because I couldn't believe he used that as a basis for argument.

[Lancet Jades]

For the record, that was just the Pentagon, who said they only had it listed with other mental disorders for convenience, due to their "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The APA removed it from their own list back in the 70's, but even that decision was political, not scientific. Even thirty years later there haven't been any significant studies on the matter because people tend to descend with righteous fury whenever the topic's even mentioned, let alone poked and prodded.

Other than that, I'm pretty sure Kaoru's been banned from the Gates.
Actually, I think I un-banned him from the Gates. I'll check.

Yep, he's not banned from the Gates, so he can not only see, but participate in this thread.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Seriously, get your views straight.
It's not a fucking disease, It's a way of life.Why are the two mutually exclusive? Diabetes is a way of life because it determines what a person eats, an inner ear infection determines how a person crosses the street, and my own autism determines how I deal with people, yet that alone excludes none of these from also being defects.

I mean, seriously Kaoru.
Was it necessary to say that?

I mean, there are plenty of people you could offend by saying that.And there are plenty of people you could offend by saying what you did, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't say it.

I mean yeah, Kaoru's an idiot and a hypocrite, especially when it comes to this subject, but saying he shouldn't have the right to express his opinion, even when the subject is forced on him like it was, isn't going to get you anywhere.

[Dave]

"I am hoping it is and that they find a cure fast for it."

That is probably one of the most homophobic things I have ever heard in my entire life. You sir, are an assclown.

[Dark Marmosett]

And while we're still on the topic of sexuality. I'll go right ahead and admit it. I'm bi and I couldn't care less if I am this, hetero, or homo. Its who you are. Its who I am. Its who all of us are. It doesn't make a single one of us lesser then the other cause all humans stand equally with each other. Except one person as I see fit.

And let me bring back another point here a while back.

While droog and kimiko I think...and I were talking about sexuality or something of the sorts. Can't remember exactly but that wasn't the point from what came after that. Kaoru himself said if he ever has a gay child, or in some cases Bi. The child will themselves be fatherless and homeless...WTF...thats crueler then my parents are to me and thats saying a lot.

If my child if I ever do get married to a woman and have one granted. I couldn't care less what their sexuality is. They are my child or children and I'd still love them with all my heart and soul cause thats what parents are supposed to do.

Also remember there is currently a couple on the forums here that are also the same sex. And if I remember correctly. I did not see kaoru post in that thread at all because I believe he wouldn't be able to post anything without saying anything harmful about the topic. Coincidence? Probably. About every other single member posted in that thread. EXCEPT him.

[Snips]

Indeed, comments like the one made by Kaoru are banneable offenses on many sites I go to (I'm guessing that out of every 5 sites, 4 of them would find it a banneable offense), and it's easy to understand why. Homosexual and Bisexual people aren't sick in the head like you seem to think they are, Kaoru. They are living, breathing, sentient human beings just like anyone else.

In fact, I have a belief. If two people love each other, they should love each other for WHO they are, not WHAT they are. That's the key with Same Sex couples: It's not a matter of one man marrying another man because he has an appendage that females don't. So, let me ask you, who's truly at fault? Is it the people who appreciate love for what it is, or is it your own immaturity and inability to accept those who are different? If anything, we should respect same sex couples (as well as single homosexuals/ bisexuals) for their strength in facing the insults and discrimination from people like you.

I'll leave it at this, so that I don't go into a rage here.

(And Raist, I see that you're trying to get people to think on both sides before posting, but is this really the best time to play Devil's advocate?)

Edit: And no, for the record, I am heterosexual, though maybe a little metrosexual (for anyone who doesn't know, Metrosexual men are straight men with "gay" tastes in fashion and the like. In other words, girls love hanging out with me)

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

That is probably one of the most homophobic things I have ever heard in my entire life.You... are very sheltered, then. >.>

Also remember there is currently a couple on the forums here that are also the same sex.Seeing as Kaoru's problem with the topic has always been more physical than moral, I don't think that's currently an issue.

And if I remember correctly. I did not see kaoru post in that thread at all because I believe he wouldn't be able to post anything without saying anything harmful about the topic. Coincidence? Probably. About every other single member posted in that thread. EXCEPT him.I didn't.

Homosexual and Bisexual people aren't sick in the head like you seem to think they are, Kaoru. They are living, breathing, sentient human beings just like anyone else.And again, I can believe myself to be a living, breathing, sentient human being, while also believing myself to be defective. That's kind of the point of most rehab groups (like Alcoholics Anonymous), actually.

In fact, I have a belief. If two people love each other, they should love each other for WHO they are, not WHAT they are. That's the key with Same Sex couples: It's not a matter of one man marrying another man because he has an appendage that females don't.
Edit: And no, for the record, I am heterosexualSo... you're a self-hating heterosexual?

(And Raist, I see that you're trying to get people to think on both sides before posting, but is this really the best time to play Devil's advocate?)Regardless of what everyone here thinks, I don't "play" at devil's advocate. Kaoru says something stupid and gets reamed by twelve people for it, but those twelve people say something stupid and shouldn't be called out on it because... they're on the "right" side of a "sensitive" issue? Fuck that.

[Dark Marmosett]

I didn't.

Hence. This word.

About

[Miles]

Kaoru is just a complete ass and a waste of space by nature.

He's rubbed Gunny and me up the wrong way...More times than I can count...With his rude, careless remarks. Just aiming to be a total well...Hmm...No can't say it, not very lady-like.

He just enjoys saying heartless things because he likes to act tough.

I can't say that I'm surprised by what he said...I do know that there are many, many people in the world who just can't accept how the world really works.
I just...Didn't think there was...One of them...Here...

[Snips]

So... you're a self-hating heterosexual?

I fail to see how respecting people different from myself makes me hate myself. I was marely stating that a lot of people have shallow and biased oppinions that are in theory groundless. That's like taking a white man who's pro Black Rights and saying he hates himself. It's a moronic statement.

Kaoru says something stupid and gets reamed by twelve people for it, but those twelve people say something stupid and shouldn't be called out on it because... they're on the "right" side of a "sensitive" issue?

This is the same as before when women and men were not considered equals. Similarly, today, there's limitations on same sex couples. How it's different is that while women couldn't vote and were considered the property of their husbands, same sex couples can't get married and some think it's a disease. HOWEVER, now women have the rights they didn't before, because they are now (well, mostly) looked at as equal human beings alongside men. It's only a matter of times before homosexuals and bisexuals are considered fully equal as well. Arguments often don't have a right or wrong side, but come on, when people are getting screwed over just for being different, that's wrong, and by association, being on the side of freedom and equality is right.

Kaoru is just a complete ass and a waste of space by nature.

I've been treying to avoid saying it that way, but yeah, this was the straw that makes me say it: Kaoru is far more of a nuisance than... well, no words really exist. I guess you hit the nail right on the head with "waste of space."

He's rubbed Gunny and me up the wrong way...More times than I can count...With his rude, careless remarks. Just aiming to be a total well...Hmm...No can't say it, not very lady-like.

Yeah, I never really take anything bad someone takes against ME seriously, but I've seen some of the things he's said to you and wow, made my blood boil.

He just enjoys saying heartless things because he likes to act tough.

That's not even a matter of acting tough. Even a 5 year old can act touch but still share his cookies. This is just pure ignorance of the fact that not everyone is a clone of stupidity incarnate (aka Kaoru at this point in time)

I can't say that I'm surprised by what he said...I do know that there are many, many people in the world who just can't accept how the world really works.

What really makes it worse is the number of politicians who are opposed to what this essentially boils down to: Human Rights. They think the world is theirs to command, and "discourage" bisexuality and homosexuality. My idea of a true democracy isn't "You voted for me, I do what I want" like it is now, but more like holding polls to get the public's input on things, etc, you know, referrendums (not to be confused with the Quebec separatist movement referrendums)

I just...Didn't think there was...One of them...Here...

Sadly... they're everywhere....

[Night]

Everybody has their own views on homosexuality. The real question is, why would somebody disseminate his or her view about homosexuality over the internet, where nobody gives a shit what he or she has to say. I could go wild here, because it's no secret that I don't like Kaoru, but I'ma stop now.

He just enjoys saying heartless things because he likes to act tough.
This is a fact. He told Sunsha that I talked shit and couldn't back it up. Needless to say he has no idea whether or not this is true, and he didn't realize he was probably doing the same thing, but that's okay.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Hence. This word.But, this word
EXCEPTis in all caps, making this word
Aboutessentially meaningless.

I'm just saying, so we all know, that if he didn't then he wasn't the only one.

I fail to see how respecting people different from myself makes me hate myself. I was marely stating that a lot of people have shallow and biased oppinions that are in theory groundless. That's like taking a white man who's pro Black Rights and saying he hates himself. It's a moronic statement.You said love shouldn't be constrained by the package the other person is carrying, yet you define yourself, clearly, as a heterosexual, which means your love is, in fact, constrained by the package the other person is carrying. Therefore you cannot live by the ideal you have set, therefore you are a self-hating heterosexual.

This is the same as before when women and men were not considered equals. Similarly, today, there's limitations on same sex couples. How it's different is that while women couldn't vote and were considered the property of their husbands, same sex couples can't get married and some think it's a disease. HOWEVER, now women have the rights they didn't before, because they are now (well, mostly) looked at as equal human beings alongside men. It's only a matter of times before homosexuals and bisexuals are considered fully equal as well. Arguments often don't have a right or wrong side, but come on, when people are getting screwed over just for being different, that's wrong, and by association, being on the side of freedom and equality is right.Um, maybe you missed it: what you, he, or I define as the "right" side of an argument is completely irrelevant if you say something stupid and irrational to convey your point. If I think that "Hitler was bad because my grass is green," does that mean I shouldn't be criticized at all because I agree, at least, that Hitler was bad? Of course not. On that note, even if someone makes an argument whose final point I agree with, if I think their rationale for arriving at that point is stupid, or if I think they're being downright dishonest because they think the ends justify the means, then I'm going to call them on it, if for no other reason than because it makes me look bad for technically siding with them.

Not that that's even my main reason, but since nobody seems to get why I do what I do and everybody thinks I'm just playing some kind of game, it'll work as a point of personal reference.

[Nickelback]

I mean yeah, Kaoru's an idiot and a hypocrite, especially when it comes to this subject, but saying he shouldn't have the right to express his opinion, even when the subject is forced on him like it was, isn't going to get you anywhere.

I have to admit, you have a point, and perhaps in hindsight it wasn't the best course of action to post a topic like this in a bad mood, seeing as how we all know that he will purposely ignore it as he has in the past.

Oh well.

[Snips]

You said love shouldn't be constrained by the package the other person is carrying, yet you define yourself, clearly, as a heterosexual, which means your love is, in fact, constrained by the package the other person is carrying. Therefore you cannot live by the ideal you have set, therefore you are a self-hating heterosexual.

Actually, I was referring to the negative view which surfaces a lot where people say "gays should just stick it out and be normal instead of making each other horny." I was stating that this statement is a horribly closed minded view on things, and I was in no way stating that heterosexuals were the other way around.

Um, maybe you missed it: what you, he, or I define as the "right" side of an argument is completely irrelevant if you say something stupid and irrational to convey your point. If I think that "Hitler was bad because my grass is green," does that mean I shouldn't be criticized at all because I agree, at least, that Hitler was bad?

Cutting off that quote there for now. My point was that if something is "wrong" the other side is "right." The color of the grass has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler. By your misguided logic, "The sand is yellow, so god is a crossdressing goat" works, which, I'm failry sure doesn't (but we have no wya of knowing for sure)

Of course not. On that note, even if someone makes an argument whose final point I agree with, if I think their rationale for arriving at that point is stupid, or if I think they're being downright dishonest because they think the ends justify the means, then I'm going to call them on it, if for no other reason than because it makes me look bad for technically siding with them.

See, I don't care how I look, difference between us right there. I sidh with the side I agree with, nothing more, nothing less.

Not that that's even my main reason, but since nobody seems to get why I do what I do and everybody thinks I'm just playing some kind of game, it'll work as a point of personal reference.

I never said it was a game, Raist, you misunderstand me.

[Miles]

It's not that he can't express his view...It's not JUST his view, it's how he said it and he said it without regard for other members.

If he has such a strong, closed view on the subject, he should state it properly or keep quiet...Not just mouth off in the shoutbox in a highly offensive manner.

He'd get chewed out no matter how he said it, I know...But that's his problem.
I remember being told here...Over and over...If you don't want people to disagree or argue with you...Then don't post your views.
You should always expect a come back on what you say when it comes to issues like this.

Unless you were all saying that to shut me up?

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Cutting off that quote there for now. My point was that if something is "wrong" the other side is "right."Cutting off that quote right there, um... no, that absolutely is not proper cause-effect.

The color of the grass has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler. By your misguided logic, "The sand is yellow, so god is a crossdressing goat" works, which, I'm failry sure doesn't (but we have no wya of knowing for sure)Thanks jackass, that was the point. If the side "Hitler was good" is "wrong," and the side "Hitler was bad" is "right," that doesn't mean the guy who says "Hitler was bad because my grass is green" is also right and thus shouldn't be criticized.

Or in other words, the existence of exactly two "sides" that you or some outside force have determined doesn't make everyone on one side "wrong," even if you label them "Hitler lovers" (or "homophobes and bigots"), and it doesn't make everyone on the other side "right," even if you label them "Hitler haters" (or "lovers of freedom and equality").

See, I don't care how I look, difference between us right there.Neither do I, but I don't like people getting the wrong impression, good or bad. Miscommunication is a big pet peeve of mine. That said, like I said, it's not a very big reason for why I do what I do, just the only one I can explain in certain terms, and frankly I'd rather have you believe that than that I just argue for the sake of it like most people seem to think.

If he has such a strong, closed view on the subject, he should state it properly or keep quiet...Not just mouth off in the shoutbox in a highly offensive manner.This particular instance he seemed to have been directly confronted about it, though, so I wouldn't really call that "just mouthing off."

[Rainbow Dash]

This is a topic that pisses me off and I'm already in a pissed off mood, so forgive me if I dont make as much sense as I'd like to.

Why are the two mutually exclusive? Diabetes is a way of life because it determines what a person eats, an inner ear infection determines how a person crosses the street, and my own autism determines how I deal with people, yet that alone excludes none of these from also being defects.
Raist, he said "disease" not "disorder." Yes Diabetes is a disease, but I'd sure be curious as to how you caught Autism.

Homosexuals choose it no more than any heterosexual chooses to be heterosexual. They just assume that heterosexual is "default" since it came so naturally for them, and figure something went wrong with their heads.

As far as "Treating" it, it's impossible. You can keep them from having gay sex, but you can't keep them from fantasizing, and there was one other aspect that can't be controlled, I don't remember what it was called. Not only that, but repressing someone's sexual desires only causes worse symptoms to occur (see all the catholic priests that have wound up raping somone due to all the pent up sexual energy they were forbidden to release.)

But what pisses me off the most in this thread is...

I heard that my one gay cousin said that your never a man until you take it in the ass

Make that fucker take a fucking gun in his fucking ass, see what that motherfucker thinks of his fucking manliness after that. I fucking HATE those kinds of people. Supremecists in general REALLY piss me off, but when someone acts like the lifestyle I've put so much on the line to protect makes him better than everyone else, I feel like they just deserve to have all the homophobics I've shut up in the past have their way with him.

Ugh, I needed that...

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Raist, he said "disease" not "disorder." Yes Diabetes is a disease, but I'd sure be curious as to how you caught Autism.Semantics, he seemed to use the word just to mean something that could theoretically be treated. Kaoru's never exactly been good with words, so I think that's reasonable leeway until he chooses to clarify.

Not only that, but repressing someone's sexual desires only causes worse symptoms to occur (see all the catholic priests that have wound up raping somone due to all the pent up sexual energy they were forbidden to release.)That's one way to look at it. Another is that, since Catholic priests have such easy access to children anyway, the job simply appeals to pedophiles. Both are true, I'd think.

Make that fucker take a fucking gun in his fucking ass, see what that motherfucker thinks of his fucking manliness after that. I fucking HATE those kinds of people. Supremecists in general REALLY piss me off, but when someone acts like the lifestyle I've put so much on the line to protect makes him better than everyone else, I feel like just letting all the homophobics I've shut up in the past have their way with him.He also rarely bothers getting his facts straight before making statements like that, so I'd have to question whether his cousin really said that. But other than that, yeah, I'm totally with you there.

[Gamerlen]

*walks in and looks at the chaos thats ensuing* Jeez... how did I miss this one for so long?

Well, I'm just gonna say this then I'll sit back and watch the chaos for a while.

When it comes to GBLT rights the younger generation tends to be accepting and supportive of us (over a fifty percent majority of teenagers and young adults support GBLT rights). Someday, they will be in the government. So all we really have to do is wait for the old guard to retire and/or die off.

So yeah, keep going guys. *sits back and has a can of sprite* This is fun to watch. ^_^

[Dave]

So where the hell's Kaoru at? I want a fight...what we have so far is a debate.

[Dark Marmosett]

So where the hell's Kaoru at? I want a fight...what we have so far is a debate.
He's only on in the mornings earlier cause he works at night unfortunately.

[Dave]

Where he drops food on people, right.

[Night]

Dammit Dave, I was about to say something similar...

He was avoiding this thread while he was online anyway. He's a bitch.

[Chicken Little]

I found it somewhat humorous that a thread in which the grief was in regard to a claim in regards to homosexuality was 'called out' by asking for Kaoru's ass. Considering the intention obviously was not in that frame of mind, one just has to step back and laugh at the connotations which can be attached when you simply read the thread title and then the first post.

Anyway, viewpoints rarely contain 100% factual information, this was Kaorus viewpoint and considering how he has rubbed many of you the wrong way you should realise by now the way he expresses his viewpoints. Yes, they may sound stupid or unenlightened to many of you, but if anyone spent the time to make a gate thread everytime he said something stupid someone didn't agree with the gates would be spammed daily.

You sit there, and you give me facts how 100% of the homosexual community is there by choice and likes that choice. Because if there is but 1% who is not happy about their situation, then that does in effect make Koarus opinion much less stupid in your eyes.

[Night]

I don't think they're angry about Kaoru's opinion, as much as the way he expressed it.
I'm not going to say anything about his actual comment. I just like the Gates.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

GBLTSo, uh, here's a question you may be able to answer for me: why in the world do transsexuals always get grouped together with homosexuality? They generally acknowledge it has nothing at all to do with sexuality, right? So, how'd they manage to swing getting a more powerful lobby, which generally deals solely in human sexuality, to mention them in almost every press release?

Seriously, I do a double-take every time I hear the term. "Gay, okay, Lesbian, ok, Bisexual... ok, Transgender... wait, what? Isn't that a whole 'nother can of beans?"

So where the hell's Kaoru at? I want a fight...what we have so far is a debate.Kaoru Gates fights are rarely very interesting, because he views them with contempt when he views them at all. It's actually an impeccable strategy, if you're going for that whole "Get everybody to hate me by being a pansy jackass" vibe.

I found it somewhat humorous that a thread in which the grief was in regard to a claim in regards to homosexuality was 'called out' by asking for Kaoru's ass. Considering the intention obviously was not in that frame of mind, one just has to step back and laugh at the connotations which can be attached when you simply read the thread title and then the first post.I thought the "Get your views straight" line was more interesting, but that might be because I never actually left sixth grade.

[Night]

Well, Riast, a transgender man can still be attracted to men, making him, although unwillingly, a man who likes men.

I don't really care about the subject, to tell the honest truth. I don't care who you wanna bone, as long as you keep it away from me.

[Dave]

Kaoru Gates fights are rarely very interesting, because he views them with contempt when he views them at all. It's actually an impeccable strategy, if you're going for that whole "Get everybody to hate me by being a pansy jackass" vibe.

Aw. I want something interesting. Fuck that honkey.

[Pinkie Pie]

So, uh, here's a question you may be able to answer for me: why in the world do transsexuals always get grouped together with homosexuality? They generally acknowledge it has nothing at all to do with sexuality, right? So, how'd they manage to swing getting a more powerful lobby, which generally deals solely in human sexuality, to mention them in almost every press release?

Seriously, I do a double-take every time I hear the term. "Gay, okay, Lesbian, ok, Bisexual... ok, Transgender... wait, what? Isn't that a whole 'nother can of beans?"

I agree that it's kind of a "which one doesn't belong" kind of thing, but as far as a reason, I can only think that it's due to the fact that there really aren't many people who understand TG, even in the GBL community.

So, on each side, the GBL community takes it as another variety of sexuality (?), the straight community just regurgitates the term, and the T community accepts it to belong to a group.

It may also be an acknowledgment of the theory of a wide spectrum of "genders" rather than the two, or maybe just to avoid any confusion regarding sexuality in the case of transgendered people.

This is in no way an attempt to be accurate or make sense.

[Chicken Little]

I thought the "Get your views straight" line was more interesting, but that might be because I never actually left sixth grade.

Well I had nothing more to add since you've handled things quite impeccably thus far, personally I was just surprised that no one else had really touched on the 'issue' considering how fast these threads deteriorate into dribble when the 'offender' doesn't show up.

[Dark Luther]

Hey Raist - do you have to be a jackass to some of these other people though...?

I get and understand taking the devil's advocate thing - you do that quite a bit - but you don't have to demean some of the rest...

Frankly - yes, in the issue the matter hasn't been investigated much because people raise a fight against it - but that's putting it incredibly simplified and ignoring a lot more of research elsewhere...

The truth is that it has been researched heavily by the psychiatric and the bilological/genetics community...
A lot of advances have been made to understand it - and it's been very well concluded - it's not a disease...
At least not as much as being left handed would be...

I know I come off badly sometimes when entering a discussion - but taking the devils advocate doesn't mean also be a jackass yourself...

Your also taking several things too literally - and for someone that at least considers himself of good intelligence,
I'd presume you would at least be willing to look with some of that intelligence towards what their saying in meaning, not in specific words...
Taking words to incredibly specific meaning and using them against someone is something one does to simply win an argument - and serves no intellectual purpose...

This is simply something I wished to point out from the earlier part of the forum, not the latter...



Look - I agree, Karou's got his opinion...
To the view of most of us - it's retarded, and it's not supported by any science in reality, and has a lot to disprove it...
I don't think it right to attack him on the basis of his opinion though - that I get and agree with Raist on...

On another matter - this should be over the matter of saying such things in a passing view in a forum that's obviously including a fair share of whom frankly, this would offend...

and to the very least one can attack Karou on his tact, than his views...

[Miles]

Look - I agree, Karou's got his opinion...
To the view of most of us - it's retarded, and it's not supported by any science in reality, and has a lot to disprove it...
I don't think it right to attack him on the basis of his opinion though - that I get and agree with Raist on...


But I don't think it's entirely about his opinion.

He's been a complete annoyance since day one. He goes around and says stuff with the intent of being a jerk and getting on someone's nerves.
I've had alot of anger towards him...That I've just locked up and after seeing this, it tipped me over thee edge.

I've just got the feeling that everyone has been equally as annoyed with him for other things...So it's not JUST his opinion here.

Geez...You shoulda seen what he said to me. If he had said that to my face...He'd have no teeth now.
And I hate violence ._. but he just crossed the line...

He just gets on peoples backs and acts with no regards toward their feelings. THAT'S what makes me angry.
He can shove his opinion where the sun don't shine, though...But that's hardly worth saying >.>;

He went on and on and on about "being a man" and he cowers away from confrontation like a child.
He started this and he's not even willing to stand up for his views...

I know there's alot of us here and all...But he should have thought about that before he went around and acted like a jerk towards most of us.
You can't go around and act like that and expect to not make MANY enemies.

[Chicken Little]

But I don't think it's entirely about his opinion.

He's been a complete annoyance since day one. He goes around and says stuff with the intent of being a jerk and getting on someone's nerves.
I've had alot of anger towards him...That I've just locked up and after seeing this, it tipped me over thee edge.

I've just got the feeling that everyone has been equally as annoyed with him for other things...So it's not JUST his opinion here.

Geez...You shoulda seen what he said to me. If he had said that to my face...He'd have no teeth now.
And I hate violence ._. but he just crossed the line...

He just gets on peoples backs and acts with no regards toward their feelings. THAT'S what makes me angry.
He can shove his opinion where the sun don't shine, though...But that's hardly worth saying >.>;

He went on and on and on about "being a man" and he cowers away from confrontation like a child.
He started this and he's not even willing to stand up for his views...

I know there's alot of us here and all...But he should have thought about that before he went around and acted like a jerk towards most of us.
You can't go around and act like that and expect to not make MANY enemies.

It is just about what he said, to you however it's about what he said plus how he pissed you off before man invented fire. Should you call him a witch because you choose to reference past events and in effect hold a grudge?

This issue was with Koarus stance on homosexuality, not if he thinks you're pretty or not or if he had a beef with you in the past. That may cloud your judgement on this, but don't decide that it should cloud everyone elses.

[Lancet Jades]

Like Raist, Luther, and even Fly have argued, this is indeed about what Kaoru said. It was brought up in the shoutbox, so he said his views on it. Not even in a trolling" manner (as in, intending to piss people off, especially as the ONLY intent), but matter-of-factly, not pulling any punches to avoid offense. It'd be very different if he just randomly decide to espouse them, but he didn't.

His views may be bigoted, outdated, and even plain wrong, but he still has his right to his opinion, and even to state it. He honestly did nothing against the rules, and the only penalty he 'should' get is what he got: falling even more in the opinion of others, and being called out on a Gates thread.

And Walnut, the reason Kaoru didn't break any rules is because I didn't see fit to include any of the usual "omg if u even say gay ur BAN'T" type rules other sites have, simply because I see no reason to make them a protected class, whereas other slurs ARE allowed (within reason, of course, since actually using them to attack someone is flaming, an existing rule, e.g. nigger). Just thought I'd clarify that to you, since the fact it would've gotten him banned at other sites (likely for simply using words like gay and such) seemed to be one of your major points in that post.

Holly, just keep in mind, he's entitled to his opinion, no matter how much it pisses you off. Honestly, as I said, the way he stated it didn't break any rules, considering that Droog was the one who brought it up from a past incident (not that HE did anything wrong either, of course). He merely stated his view on a subject that was brought up, and responded accordingly to what people said (and was at least a little more civil about it than other people are in discussions and debates, like Mal).

If he bothers you so much though, then just set him to ignore, and also ignore any threads relating to him.

[Applejack]

Holly, just keep in mind, he's entitled to his opinion, no matter how much it pisses you off. Honestly, as I said, the way he stated it didn't break any rules, considering that Droog was the one who brought it up from a past incident (not that HE did anything wrong either, of course).


I brought that up in jest, of course, which is why I also said it was a "low blow" because it really wasn't fair of me to do so.


I suppose I should say something in regards to this heated issue.

On the subject of Kaoru's assclownery (it's a word >.>), I really have no right to comment as I am still a new member and, with the exception of this little incident and other, small instances in the shoutbox, and I haven't seen many other instances. So my so called "argument" is going to be free from Kaoru slander.

As I said in an earlier post, I personally was not offended, even though I'm sure several persons in my position would be. I took that comment with the phrase "Ignorance is bliss" in mind and shrugged it off. But apparently his comments are no longer at the core of this debate, rather his opinion relating to the posting of said comment. So it's become an opinionated debate.

I'm going to lose favor for this, but I don't care. Kaoru is entitled to his opinion, no matter how narrow minded it may be. But should we all jump on him for it? No, as that would be the equivalent of someone getting arrested for sharing his opinion about, say, the government, simply because more people disagreed with the personal stance. This isn't Oceania.

Hell, the only thing that was really awful in my eyes was how he'd abandon his own child if he or she turned out to be gay, which was the lead in I used to spark this whole debate. Anyway, back to his opinion. So Kaoru believes gay people are, for lack of a better term, a blight. Alright then, his opinion. If I've learned anything from years of ridicule simply because people hated what I am, it's that comments like that don't matter in the grand scheme of things. So he said some off hand remarks about gay people being a disease, who are we to attack him for that? Let him believe what he wants to believe, does it really affect you?

I know I'm probably going to make myself look like an idiot, and that's my fault, as I only skimmed the topic, I didn't bother to read every post thoroughly. Basically what I was getting at was, Kaoru said some pretty disparaging things, and though we may not agree, it's hardly a reason to start flaming his opinion. There's no reason to bash someone's opinion, even if it is an ignorant one.

Anyway, I abstain from the debate now, I just wanted to get that little diatribe out there. Again, I probably just set myself for massive 'Droog, you're a fucking moron', but it's the internet, and that happens every day.

[Altima]

So yeah, homosexuality. A disease. Do you really think that? I mean, shit, does that apply to bisexuals as well? Because last I fucking checked, The government recently took it off their list of various mental illnesses because, GUESS WHAT, it's not.

I never followed up on it, and it doesn't matter to me if it is a disease or not. I don't even think that it is, I was just stating that they were researching it a bit and that all the evidence is not yet out there. The same could be said about Asexual people, who are people who don't want any sex at all, and never do it which actually according to what I saw on Montel when I saw something about asexual behavior could be due to a missing chromosome if I remember correctly. So if this kind of sexuality could have a medical reason then there is no reason why Homosexual behavior could not also be explained if given the time to research it, but since it is such a hush hush kind of issue not much is being done about it as it isn't exactly an easy issue to discuss.

It's not that he can't express his view...It's not JUST his view, it's how he said it and he said it without regard for other members.

You must do this in order to express your view. I wasn't trying to be popular or to gain friends or anything, I was just stating things. I should have explained them more but that is hard to do in a shoutbox.


He'd get chewed out no matter how he said it, I know...But that's his problem.

Yes you are right that no matter what I say I will get chewed out. I could be nice on here for 2 years straight and be kind and everything yet everyone would continue to hate me just because of a few past arguments, so what is the point to be nice and kind?

I remember being told here...Over and over...If you don't want people to disagree or argue with you...Then don't post your views.
You should always expect a come back on what you say when it comes

Yes but if you don't ever say anything then no one will know your view on the subject and the only way to learn about any particular subject or to gain any kind of prespective on a subject is to talk about it with other people. This is easier for some people as some don't care about being perceived as nice or kind or anything. It is the same as in school when people act a certain way to ft in with a certain crowd even if they don't feel the same way that they do.

Make that fucker take a fucking gun in his fucking ass, see what that motherfucker thinks of his fucking manliness after that. I fucking HATE those kinds of people. Supremecists in general REALLY piss me off, but when someone acts like the lifestyle I've put so much on the line to protect makes him better than everyone else, I feel like they just deserve to have all the homophobics I've shut up in the past have their way with him.

LOL......I said that I would never be a man if that is how to become one. I had my prostate chcked when I was like 10 tho so maybe that counts too. It hurt like hell BTW.

So yeah, keep going guys. *sits back and has a can of sprite* This is fun to watch. ^_^

That sounds like something I would say. At least we have some activity and a debate going, which is a good thing I suppose.

Anyway, viewpoints rarely contain 100% factual information, this was Kaorus viewpoint and considering how he has rubbed many of you the wrong way you should realise by now the way he expresses his viewpoints. Yes, they may sound stupid or unenlightened to many of you, but if anyone spent the time to make a gate thread everytime he said something stupid someone didn't agree with the gates would be spammed daily.

No 1 viewpoint will have all the facts usually, as not all the facts are even in existance when it comes down to this topic. We would also spam the gates heavily if everyone always did it whenever they disagreed with another person's opinion on any subject. Opinions are meant to be made, acknowledged and then debated, that is what they are for.

You sit there, and you give me facts how 100% of the homosexual community is there by choice and likes that choice. Because if there is but 1% who is not happy about their situation, then that does in effect make Koarus opinion much less stupid in your eyes.

See my statements above (1st one I think) about Asexual people. If it could be medical then Homosexuals may have something qwrong with them too. It might not be 100% of them that are diseased in any way but if any of them are then they are not that way be any kind of choice.

Aw. I want something interesting. Fuck that honkey.

If you want to make it interesting then actually debate the topic a little instead of just cussing at me. Of course this is a Gates thread and not a DT thread so I suppose that is perfectly ok in here.

I agree that it's kind of a "which one doesn't belong" kind of thing, but as far as a reason, I can only think that it's due to the fact that there really aren't many people who understand TG, even in the GBL community.

This is a 100% true statement. In the beginning there were 2 genders and now there are many it seems with all this surgery stuff. You can never tell if a man was born a man or if a woman was born a woman anymore. There is a grey area that is very hard for anyone to understand. I don't see why people cannot just accept how they were born. It isn't just trying to change your sexuality that this could apply too but all the kinds of surgeries that people have anymore to try and change who they are and how they appear just to please themselves or others. Eventually we will all get old and not look all that "Hot" so we might as well just get used to how we were born.

I've had alot of anger towards him...That I've just locked up and after seeing this, it tipped me over thee edge.

Yes and because you keep all the anger with you instead of letting it go anything that I say is automatically and subconsicously hated upon, no matter what it is that I say.

This issue was with Koarus stance on homosexuality, not if he thinks you're pretty or not or if he had a beef with you in the past. That may cloud your judgement on this, but don't decide that it should cloud everyone elses.

Exactly what I was trying to state above.

Hell, the only thing that was really awful in my eyes was how he'd abandon his own child if he or she turned out to be gay, which was the lead in I used to spark this whole debate.

I don't think that I would really abandon, however I would try to change him/her back to normal or at least understand why they think that they are gay. Hell I had the principal and my teacher and guidance counselor talking to me in 4th grade because they thought I wanted to be a girl because I drew a picture of a girl lol. There could be many reasons for an upset person.

Basically what I was getting at was, Kaoru said some pretty disparaging things, and though we may not agree, it's hardly a reason to start flaming his opinion. There's no reason to bash someone's opinion, even if it is an ignorant one.

Well said as if we always bashed everyone whose opinion was different from our own then we would have to bash most of the world and have no friends.

Now that I have addressed all the quotes that I think I wanted to address, although I may need to check again I will now say some other things.

Lets take this a bit religiously, even tho im not religious in any way, however I am sure it will be brought up eventually about gays going to hell or whatever bible loving people say. I can understand why they say this too, and why they say that God would shun these people.

Let me ask this question....What would God want of his people? What is a human beings main purpose on this world? My answer to this is to maintain the species, to breed, to keep the Earth alive. As 2 women and 2 men cannot do this, I believe that is why seriously religious people are gainst same sex marriage and so on. Since they can't give birth they cn't maintain the species. This is rather stupid however as there are over 6 billion people in this world so I doubt that we have any reason to worry about extinction unles we have some huge nuclear wars or a meteor or something hits us and changes our climate drastically, or we destroy the planet through global warming or something.

We are to maintain our species and hopefully all the animal species as well and continue to try and turn the Earth to a better tomorrow.

Also our lack of understanding may also play a part in our hatred towards gays, transexuals, and asexuals.

I can't quite get why people cannot learn to accept themselves. If you are born a boy or you are born a girl then you should just learn to love yourself for that. Also all the other kind of surgeries we have to make ourselves look better IN OUR OWN EYES most of the time are stupid as well. All the Lipo, and implants and all of that isn't necessary to me all the time unless your life is being threatened by obescity or something and you need it done right away.

I will end this now actually I think, or perhaps edit it and add more quotes to better the debate that this has started.

EDIT: I know that perhaps I should have never said anything but that isn't really my style. I will always state my opinion on any subject regardless or not if people will hate me for it. Some of it was taken too seriously as I didn't mean some of it. I will never lie and try to make myself look like a different person just to gain a little support (Although here I will always be hated by everyone for past transcretions, so it doesn't even matter) I will continue to make enemies in the future I am sure but at least I will attempt to state my honest opinion on a particular subject.

[Rainbow Dash]

If you are born a boy or you are born a girl then you should just learn to love yourself for that.
Doesnt work that way. You'd not mind it if you woke up one day and found you had turned into a girl? You'd decide to love yourself for that?

[Pinkie Pie]

This is a 100% true statement. In the beginning there were 2 genders and now there are many it seems with all this surgery stuff. You can never tell if a man was born a man or if a woman was born a woman anymore. There is a grey area that is very hard for anyone to understand. I don't see why people cannot just accept how they were born. It isn't just trying to change your sexuality that this could apply too but all the kinds of surgeries that people have anymore to try and change who they are and how they appear just to please themselves or others. Eventually we will all get old and not look all that "Hot" so we might as well just get used to how we were born.

That was absolutely not what I was saying or implying. My point was that there are, overall, even in the gay community, very few people who understand transgenderism in the first place (which your response ironically serves as a decent example) as a possible (and probably wrong) explanation as to why it was included in the GBLT "group".

It was in no way a statement that transgenderism is bunk.

[The Deity]

Well Raist stole the majority of any thunder I might have had. You have the right to disagree with Kaoru, but if you are going to crucify him as hateful and ignorant, don't be so yourself.

Also, I have no idea what you were really trying to get at in any of your posts Holly, other than you hate him.

I did not see kaoru post in that thread at all because I believe he wouldn't be able to post anything without saying anything harmful about the topic. Coincidence? Probably. About every other single member posted in that thread. EXCEPT him.

Don't you mean probably not? Either way why are you complaining? He obviously does not support homosexuality. At least he has some restraint.

Indeed, comments like the one made by Kaoru are banneable offenses on many sites I go to (I'm guessing that out of every 5 sites, 4 of them would find it a banneable offense), and it's easy to understand why.

For having and expressing an opinion? Its not like he said that all homosexual people should die or that they shouldn't be allowed to be here. He said he hopes its a cureable disease.

In fact, I have a belief. If two people love each other, they should love each other for WHO they are, not WHAT they are. That's the key with Same Sex couples: It's not a matter of one man marrying another man because he has an appendage that females don't. So, let me ask you, who's truly at fault? Is it the people who appreciate love for what it is, or is it your own immaturity and inability to accept those who are different? If anything, we should respect same sex couples (as well as single homosexuals/ bisexuals) for their strength in facing the insults and discrimination from people like you.

Well you said it yourself, that is your belief. Don't act like every other person shares the same.


(And Raist, I see that you're trying to get people to think on both sides before posting, but is this really the best time to play Devil's advocate?)


Stating foolish and one sided comments are hardly fair just because the majority supports you.




Cutting off that quote there for now. My point was that if something is "wrong" the other side is "right." The color of the grass has absolutely nothing to do with Hitler. By your misguided logic, "The sand is yellow, so god is a crossdressing goat" works, which, I'm failry sure doesn't (but we have no wya of knowing for sure)

Are you really that inept. He is saying that people are bashing him with faulty logic.


See, I don't care how I look, difference between us right there. I sidh with the side I agree with, nothing more, nothing less.


You're a metrosexual that doesn't care how you look?

*walks in and looks at the chaos thats ensuing* Jeez... how did I miss this one for so long?

Well, I'm just gonna say this then I'll sit back and watch the chaos for a while.

When it comes to GBLT rights the younger generation tends to be accepting and supportive of us (over a fifty percent majority of teenagers and young adults support GBLT rights). Someday, they will be in the government. So all we really have to do is wait for the old guard to retire and/or die off.

So yeah, keep going guys. *sits back and has a can of sprite* This is fun to watch. ^_^

Well, then kindly leave the thread alone


So where the hell's Kaoru at? I want a fight...what we have so far is a debate.

Uh, its the internet. Good luck seeing fisticuffs.


I'm going to lose favor for this, but I don't care. Kaoru is entitled to his opinion, no matter how narrow minded it may be. But should we all jump on him for it? No, as that would be the equivalent of someone getting arrested for sharing his opinion about, say, the government, simply because more people disagreed with the personal stance. This isn't Oceania.

That was maybe my favorite paragraph I have read on this site ever.


Doesnt work that way. You'd not mind it if you woke up one day and found you had turned into a girl? You'd decide to love yourself for that?

Believing that men that want to be women should be men is not an absurd statement.

[Snips]

You're a metrosexual that doesn't care how you look?

Okay, wrong kind of "how I look," lol. I don't give a rat's ass about what people think of me.

Perhaps I wasn't that clear. I'm not going to force my oppinions on anyone, to do so would make me no better than extremist dictators. However, I DO expect people to voice their oppinions respectfully, which Kaoru did not do. I might be heterosexual, but even I took offense to his "homosexuality is a disease and I hope they find a cure" comment. Given how there are plenty of bisexuals on this site (possibly some homosexuals but I can't think of any off the top of my head) saying that the way he said it in the shoutbox is just totally unnacceptable, I feel. I'm all for free speech, but would I tell a politician I don't like that he sucks donkey balls to his face? Of course not, because it's a simple matter of respect. If you have something mean or hurtful to say, don't just vent it at whoever. If Kaoru wanted to say that, he should have said it at an anti-gay community, not here.

Translation: He's entitled to his oppinion, but it's HOW he communicated it that got us all riled up.

[The Deity]

From the sounds of it, the point was brought up an he shared his opinion. You may not like what he said, but he was not targeting a member with it. As Lades said, he hasn't gone out and randomly stated this, he did it in a context.

[Dave]

If you want to make it interesting then actually debate the topic a little instead of just cussing at me. Of course this is a Gates thread and not a DT thread so I suppose that is perfectly ok in here.

I'm not debating because I don't really care. Does it matter to me if someone is homosexual? Not at all, chief. As long as they're not hitting on me, they can do their own thing.

[Night]

Yes you are right that no matter what I say I will get chewed out. I could be nice on here for 2 years straight and be kind and everything yet everyone would continue to hate me just because of a few past arguments, so what is the point to be nice and kind? You won't know until you try, and you'll fail, so that post wasn't necessary.

Yes and because you keep all the anger with you instead of letting it go anything that I say is automatically and subconsicously hated upon, no matter what it is that I say.So she'd hate it if you said "I wish no kitty ever died again"? Quit being such a victim. People take issue with what you actually say. Don't keep generalizing and using hypotheticals.

Also our lack of understanding may also play a part in our hatred towards gays, transexuals, and asexuals. This, followed by:

I can't quite get why people cannot learn to accept themselves. If you are born a boy or you are born a girl then you should just learn to love yourself for that.Telling people what to do, even though you don't understand their situation?

As 2 women and 2 men cannot do thisActually, they could make two babies.

[Rainbow Dash]

Believing that men that want to be women should be men is not an absurd statement.
Oh, but it is. That's not the point though, I just got sidetracked. Lemme try again.

If society started telling you that you had to like men, and that you were going to go to hell if you didn't, how would you feel?

[The Deity]

I'm not debating because I don't really care. Does it matter to me if someone is homosexual? Not at all, chief. As long as they're not hitting on me, they can do their own thing.

Well you do care. You support their right to be gay, you just don't feel the need to back up your position?

Oh, but it is. That's not the point though, I just got sidetracked. Lemme try again.

Not really. I think from a societal standpoint, it is not unreasonable for an individual to hold that expectation.

If society started telling you that you had to like men, and that you were going to go to hell if you didn't, how would you feel?

I'm not defending his opinion. I'm defending his right to have it, and I am trying to stop people from fighting hate with hate. Seriously insanely bashing him for his opinion is no different than him insanely bashing people because they are gay (which he didn't do). To not dodge your question, I wouldn't care but that hardly matters in the spectrum of this discussion

[Dave]

Well you do care. You support their right to be gay, you just don't feel the need to back up your position?

Their right to be gay? You mean somebody is allowing them?

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Perhaps I wasn't that clear. I'm not going to force my oppinions on anyone, to do so would make me no better than extremist dictators. However, I DO expect people to voice their oppinions respectfully, which Kaoru did not do. I might be heterosexual, but even I took offense to his "homosexuality is a disease and I hope they find a cure" comment. Given how there are plenty of bisexuals on this site (possibly some homosexuals but I can't think of any off the top of my head) saying that the way he said it in the shoutbox is just totally unnacceptable, I feel. I'm all for free speech, but would I tell a politician I don't like that he sucks donkey balls to his face? Of course not, because it's a simple matter of respect. If you have something mean or hurtful to say, don't just vent it at whoever. If Kaoru wanted to say that, he should have said it at an anti-gay community, not here.

Translation: He's entitled to his oppinion, but it's HOW he communicated it that got us all riled up.What... the fuck. I don't even know where to start.

Once more, what Kaoru did not do that you keep accusing him of is "vent" his "mean and hurtful opinion" at "whoever." He was directly and personally confronted about his opinion on the subject, and essentially all he did was restate it. This has been acknowledged by several people who actually saw the entire incident, including Lades and myself, but if you've any doubts you can feel free to check the archives yourself before continuing to spout what amounts to libel.

On that note, your analogy sucks. If a politician came up to you, in public, quoted something you said a while ago and added that that makes you a jackass, you shouldn't have to feel unable to respond just because the PC Police might be watching. People are going to disagree with you, obviously, but there's a difference between "That statement was stupid, he shouldn't believe that" and "He shouldn't even give his thoughts breath."

And... what? "I'm all for freedom of speech, but only if you're preaching to the already converted?" I mean... what? Should I never say anything bad about Sony or Nintendo except at anti-Sony or anti-Nintendo sites, just because there might be fanboys here and we don't want to hurt their pwecious widdle feewings? Stop being such a goddamn idiot.

Translation: It is not, no matter how much this statement might be repeated, "how" he said what he did that got people riled up, because there was nothing wrong with how he went about it or why it came up in the first place; it is, very specifically, "what" he said that was the problem (and in your case, bizarrely, "where" he said it, because apparently you don't think EF should be a place where we can freely express our opinions).

[The Deity]

Their right to be gay? You mean somebody is allowing them?

Well it would seem so, or we wouldn't have homosexuals at all. Brilliant way to side step my calling out of your "indifference" by being picky about my wording though, nice move.

[Snips]

What... the fuck. I don't even know where to start.

Once more, what Kaoru did not do that you keep accusing him of is "vent" his "mean and hurtful opinion" at "whoever." He was directly and personally confronted about his opinion on the subject, and essentially all he did was restate it. This has been acknowledged by several people who actually saw the entire incident, including Lades and myself, but if you've any doubts you can feel free to check the archives yourself before continuing to spout what amounts to libel.

I have read the archives, and admit my wording wasn't the best. I didn't mean "random" persay, because obviously it the comment was only made because the opportunity to make it came up. However, it's about CHOICE. I'll continue this in the next section.... (Note: I do admit to not knowing the full story at first, but it doesn't change the fact that I disagree with the statement)

On that note, your analogy sucks. If a politician came up to you, in public, quoted something you said a while ago and added that that makes you a jackass, you shouldn't have to feel unable to respond just because the PC Police might be watching.

Not even the Police, it's just plain disrespectful. If a ploitician said that, I'd say "well then we have to agree to disagree on that." Or, if he was being downright rude with plenty of vulgarity, I'd say "Excuse me? I'm not going to stand here and have my intelligence levels insulted by one who refuses to think outside the box. Good bye." and simply walk away. What can they possibly do about that? Even if it was illigal to speak against politicians, that shouldn't get anyone in trouble, and although the politician would be slightly offended, not nearly as much as if I blew up in said person's face with slanderous insults.

See, it's my CHOICE to be respectful whenever possible. No one elses. Kaoru made the CHOICE to post in the shoutbox, when he could have just ignored it. Every choice has a reprecussion or result of some sort. Respecting others (often, not always) earns me respect in return, while Kaoru's disrespectful way of wording things obviously made people jump on him.

People are going to disagree with you, obviously, but there's a difference between "That statement was stupid, he shouldn't believe that" and "He shouldn't even give his thoughts breath."

Again, I've been misunderstood. I'll just quickly bing this up.

Perhaps I wasn't that clear. I'm not going to force my oppinions on anyone, to do so would make me no better than extremist dictators. However, I DO expect people to voice their oppinions respectfully, which Kaoru did not do.

I'm not trying to make everyone agree with me, convert people, or whatever. Everyone is entitled to their own oppinion, and everypne is entitled to voice it, but conflicts occur if an oppinion was voiced in a disagreeable manner. If you went back in time to when blacks were slaves and said to the slave owners "Blacks are our friends and should be treated as such" you'd be shot on sight. Why? Because all the white slave owners would take incredible offense to your statement. However, if you simply said "I don't like the way the slaves are treated" they might listen to you... might. This is much the same. In a world opening slowly but surely to homosexuals and transgenders, stating that homosexuality is a disease and HOPING they find the cure, it's far more offensive than "I don't like gay couples."

I know time travel is impossible by the way, no need to bring that up.

And... what? "I'm all for freedom of speech, but only if you're preaching to the already converted?" I mean... what? Should I never say anything bad about Sony or Nintendo except at anti-Sony or anti-Nintendo sites, just because there might be fanboys here and we don't want to hurt their pwecious widdle feewings? Stop being such a goddamn idiot.

Okay, again, let me provide a better example, keeping to the scenario you provided. Buying 50 Wiis and smashing them in a Nintendo factory would get you much wtf-ness from Nintendo, but Sony might applaud you on your boldness. Same goes in reverse. (Not like it matters in the end, they made money off the sales in the first place.) Same goes here. EF is a very accepting community compared to many others I find, so discriminatory comments here are comparable to smashing a system in the company's own headquarters. Don't get me wrong, I do not hate Kaoru for what he's said, or you for defending him, or anything to that effect, but I think that his comment was over the top, and was saying that "Yeah, of course we won't agree with you, but maybe another site might."

Translation: It is not, no matter how much this statement might be repeated, "how" he said what he did that got people riled up, because there was nothing wrong with how he went about it or why it came up in the first place; it is, very specifically, "what" he said that was the problem (and in your case, bizarrely, "where" he said it, because apparently you don't think EF should be a place where we can freely express our opinions).

Read the above. It's not what he said, specifically, but the way it was worded. It wasn't the fact that it was a negative comment, but the way that comment was worded and used in that context. I al;ready sound like a broken record, which personally I'm sick of, so yeah. Read the above.

[Lancet Jades]

Saph, you seem to be arguing that what he did was likely to offend people here, and that it was not very respectful. But I think we all realize that by now.

What you DON'T seem to understand is that it's HIS (Kaoru's) choice whether or not to BE respectful. And his past has shown that it isn't likely. You seem to be trying to convince us that Kaoru broke some unwritten rule here, and the only possible conclusion is that you hope to either get Raist/Deity/Myself to agree with you (which I don't think any of us were arguing because we defend the actualy CONTENT of what he said), or maybe see if you could get him warned. Again, I seriously doubt you actually are, but it's one of only two reasons you could possibly be persisting with arguing here, as by continuing, you must hope for SOMETHING to happen in the matter, most likely raist/deity/myself yielding to you.

In conclusion, your self-professed point of trying to get us to understand WHY you were offended by Kaoru's comment is successful, but by continuing to argue and discuss the subject, it seems like you want something more, such as us yielding to you and agreeing that he shouldn't have said it (officially, not just morally/respect-wise), and/or him being officially reprimanded for it.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Dude, your analogies suck. Badly. Stop using them.

...it doesn't change the fact that I disagree with the statement...And that's absolutely not a problem. Even telling him so is absolutely not a problem. Calling him a homophobic bigot for saying it, even if I'd think that's a bit premature, is still not a problem (though I'd, uh, only do it in the Gates if I was you). Saying, however, that he shouldn't even state his opinion when directly confronted about it? That's a problem.

Not even the Police, it's just plain disrespectful. If a ploitician said that, I'd say "well then we have to agree to disagree on that." Or, if he was being downright rude with plenty of vulgarity, I'd say "Excuse me? I'm not going to stand here and have my intelligence levels insulted by one who refuses to think outside the box. Good bye." and simply walk away. What can they possibly do about that?Who cares what "they" would do? This is the point. You said yourself that you don't care how other people view you, so why do you keep arguing that Kaoru should care how the rest of the site views him? And no matter how much you might repeat the word "disrespectful, Kaoru did nothing of the sort because all he did was offer an opinion when confronted. He didn't say "To all the queers and fags on this site: you are diseased," nor did he say "I'm sorry if this offends anyone," because he shouldn't have to. Someone said, essentially: "So what about your opinion on homosexuality?," to which he responded, "This is my opinion on homosexuality."

His opinion, by the way, no matter how often you keep repeating it, was not "All homosexuals are diseased," but just "I hope it can be cured." Most people here probably won't see a difference, but I absolutely do.

Okay, again, let me provide a better example, keeping to the scenario you provided. Buying 50 Wiis and smashing them in a Nintendo factory would get you much wtf-ness from Nintendo, but Sony might applaud you on your boldness. Same goes in reverse. (Not like it matters in the end, they made money off the sales in the first place.) Same goes here. EF is a very accepting community compared to many others I find, so discriminatory comments here are comparable to smashing a system in the company's own headquarters.This is not a pro-gay site, nor is it a site that produces pro-gays, nor is it a site that only employs pro-gays. The type of members we might have now should in no way constitute what members we accept in the future, because that's, you know, fucking retarded, especially for someone who claims they believe in free speech ("except when it disagrees with the majority" :rolleyes).

Don't get me wrong, I do not hate Kaoru for what he's said, or you for defending him, or anything to that effect, but I think that his comment was over the top, and was saying that "Yeah, of course we won't agree with you, but maybe another site might."The second this place becomes a twenty-four hour circle jerk is the second I get the fuck out of here for good. We accept alternate opinions here, even if we disagree with them, even when they create such vitriol in our blood that the only way we feel we can resolve it is to create a Gates thread. But saying he should "go play with his own kind?" That makes you as bigoted as the person you're claiming to protest, and this site not as accepting as you're claiming it is. I know you're used to that watered-down canuck variety of free speech and all, where newspapers get fined for referencing the Bible because it's "anti-gay," but the point of expressing an opinion is not to tell someone that already agrees with you. That's, you know, pointless.

Read the above. It's not what he said, specifically, but the way it was worded. It wasn't the fact that it was a negative comment, but the way that comment was worded and used in that context.Except, the only alternatives you've provided are that he not say it (which makes it a problem of "what," since it implies you find the statement irredeemable) or that he say it somewhere else (which makes it a problem of "where," which is stupid anyway since the conversation took place here, not somewhere else). The only way you seem to be trying to convince anybody that it was "how" is just by repeating "disrespectful" ad nauseam, as if the word itself is enough.

In conclusion, your self-professed point of trying to get us to understand WHY you were offended by Kaoru's comment is successful, but by continuing to argue and discuss the subject, it seems like you want something more, such as us yielding to you and agreeing that he shouldn't have said it (officially, not just morally/respect-wise), and/or him being officially reprimanded for it.I'm not going to say he shouldn't have said it, in any sense. I don't agree that homosexuality needs to be cured, but that's irrelevant: he did what any normal person would do in that situation, and there's no reason to expect anything more, even from normal people. His comment may have been offensive to some people, even to a lot of people, but that in itself does not make it disrespectful.

[Dave]

Well it would seem so, or we wouldn't have homosexuals at all. Brilliant way to side step my calling out of your "indifference" by being picky about my wording though, nice move.

I have stated three things in this thread:

1) What Kaoru said was homophobic.

2) That I wanted to fight. I also called Kay a honkey.

3) That I could care less about gay rights, as it doesn't bother.

If you can find one post in this thread where I have stated I am pro-gay rights, I will debate this matter further.

[The Deity]

I'm not debating because I don't really care. Does it matter to me if someone is homosexual? Not at all, chief. As long as they're not hitting on me, they can do their own thing.

You clearly state that it is fine with you that people are gay so long as they don't hit on you. Thereby you are pro gay rights. I am hardly asking you to debate gay rights with me. Just don't state a stance and then try to play it off as indifference.

[Dave]

So not caring what gay people do is considered pro-gay rights now? Wow, I just kinda assumed that was something along the lines of, "I want them to be able to marry and adopt and own puppies and etc...". Dude, I seriously don't give a fuck if they can marry or not. It doesn't affect me.

[Nickelback]

[...]I could care less[...]

You know what comes next.

http://cmdrstargunner.googlepages.com/couldntcareless.png

[Dave]

I suppose Jason Mraz was right. It is all about the wordplay.

...yeah, I just referenced a Jason Mraz song.

[Night]

You know what comes next.

http://cmdrstargunner.googlepages.com/couldntcareless.png...spam?
Seriously, nobody gives a fuck about the "caring continuum". We've already heard you bitch about a common phrase. The point is, it's accepted language.

[The Deity]

So not caring what gay people do is considered pro-gay rights now?

That's not quite what I am saying. You obviously gave the impression that you had nothing wrong with homosexuality as long as you were not involved, how much more can homosexuals ask for from an average heterosexual guy?

[Dave]

I dunno, attend some rallies or something?

Just throwing out ideas.

[Rainbow Dash]

...I think this thread is over.

[Night]

This is the weakest Gates thread since Sora stopped posting.

[Dave]

This is pretty fucking boring.

[Nickelback]

I quite like pie.

[Zelphiel]

I'm pretty certain that Homosexuality was removed from the DSM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Man ual_of_Mental_Disorders) when the 2nd version of it was made in the late 60s. So as far as mental health professionals are concerned psychiatric health and homosexuality aren't related at all. A psychiatrist or therapist that says otherwise is full of shit.

I was just stating that they were researching it a bit and that all the evidence is not yet out there.

the only people that would be trying to get it back on the DSM would be the fucks on the far right which you shouldn't believe in the first place.