Parry Weapon Vs Shield

[Dark Luther]

An argument arose with one of our better historians, and for now temporary captain...

The issue is the use of a parry weapon as opposed to a shield.

My views are of course based on the fact that I've trained with a style and have long found it better - for myself - to use a parry weapon ( particularly with the offhand being pointed down ). He states this is not a proper replacement for a shield - I differ.

He points out the greater area of protection, and also goes on to argue the very use of a second large weapon as a parry weapon.

I argue that a shield is heavy and cumbersome - restricting movement and field of vision.
Also a parry weapon can be used to threaten an attack - something a shield can only do very limited.
The parry weapon would form in my opinion a basis in which to move ( attack left, move right and the sword will naturally parry when aimed down ).

An added bonus - considering the people I fight against ) is if re-enforced with my main weapon, it can hold off and absorb a heavy strike by a two hander wielded by a much larger opponent. In the case of a shield, I would take considerable shock from the attack...


Other points made for tha shield include less a chance for mistake, the ability to control going offensive or defensive - something I agree is difficult with two swords ( as going offensive leaves you exposed, and defensive doesn't use the two weapons to their best ability ).

Also - shield is easier - while two swords is something that requires ambi-dexterity and large amounts of practice -
and even then has a margin of error not existant in shield...



Well, there's the argument.
I should point out that two sword isn't for everyone, and I was arguing the point on my merit ( stating that a well expirienced and trained person could use it better than a shield ). [ don't take into effect projectile weapons ]



So - with the right training / can two sword be better in defense than a shield...?

[Wallie Wildo]

id say a parry weapon could be more useful but only if its in the hands of someone experianced enough to know what theyre doin (unlike me lol) id definatly trust a shield more though

[Rainbow Dash]

It depends on your main weapon. If you've got a dagger in one hand, you'll hardly be able to reach around the shield, as you're dealign with a quick weapon in one hand designed for mobility and a burdensome bulk of protection in the other hand. In fact, I'm really not seeing any way that a shield can be used in combination with a dagger if you're holding the dagger correctly.

If you're using a longish sword or spear, though, which can be used for thrusting (although I know that swords are better being used as a slashing weapon, and thus would work with a parry weapon too) then you can keep your shield up while thrusting from the side.

If you are indeed talking about a sword as your weapon, then it just depends on your style and model of sword.

[Kaffee]

If something can trough my axe then I deserve to die.

[Dark Luther]

Well, the concept is that one will carry a main weapon - and this really doesn't include a dagger...

Main weapons include - Broadsword, scimitar, axe, pick, javelin, and several other single handed weapons...


The question is this:
Is it possible for a second weapon on the off hand to be equivelant - if not better - at defence than a shield,
in the right hands...

Mind you I don't mean using the off hand weapon to parry blows by striking - but my concept includes the point down...
Thus a strike top left, move right and lift sword up to left,
a strike down left, move right and lower the sword slightly...

A strike from above - use main weapon and this leaves the off hand weapon to cut across..., or use the offhand to simply carry over...


it is my opinion that this is more efficient than a shield - in which your taking a strong brunt - and where the opponent can simply continually bash at your shield...



This probably stems in ym personal style of using two short swords / duel daggers...

The problem is history wise - this is not supported by any manuals, and european fighters are extremly traditional...
and if you couldn't find it in a manual - it wasn't period...

In truth - I have yet to find a style similar to what I addressed..., the closest is probably Shiki from Samurai Showdown / SNK vs Capcom...( one up / one down )

[Dark Marmosett]

Yeah. IT all comes with experience as the cawky said...and i'd have no idea how to use two parry weapons correctly so I'd trust a shield.

[Rainbow Dash]

Then it depends on what the enemy is using. I can't really see a parry weapon working against a spear. However, using a parry weapon against more flexible weapons, it is possible to not only stop, but deflect the enemy weapon to prevent them from parrying your counterattack.

[Dark Luther]

It should by all means ( and in fact does ) work against spear.
Spear is simply a thrusting weapon with reach, it is just as vulnerable to parry as is a rapier or sword.

The good thing about a parry weapon such as a sword used against a spear is that while you run forward and close in the space - you still have a weapon in contact with the spear - while having a spear threatening the opponent...


This is of course unless you have another reason why a parry weapon wouldn't work on a spear - by which I would be interested to find out...



I should state that by parry weapon - I mean in this case a regular weapon easily used in one hand - not the normal parry weapon used in fencing ( consisting of a small dagger ).
Examples would be usually the exact weapon being used in the main hand - though not axe, or something like a long sword or short sword.


This is also an argument for the use of Case swords ( the use of two regular weapons of the same type and size - or twins - being used one in each hand ).

[Rainbow Dash]

This is of course unless you have another reason why a parry weapon wouldn't work on a spear - by which I would be interested to find out...
I'm thinking leverage, but I may be picturing it wrong - if you're hitting the spear away at the tip, you'd have to be significantly stronger than the opponent, depending on whether it's a one handed or two handed spear, and depending how long the spear is. But then again, spears aren't really my thing, so I may be picturing it wrong.

[Dark Luther]

No, by no means - your point has a lot of merit...
and I imagined the spear as two handed so it makes a lot of sense.

In fact - your right - it would be very difficult to parry away a spear tip with all it's force as it lunges towards you.
On the other hand - once extended it's very weak and easy to control - because you extend very little while they are extended several feet...

Thus your doing the concept of pie...
where I'm at the end of his radius and has to multiply the force placed against me.



The trick then - like with all thrusting weapons - but primarily a spear since it has such force behind it, is not to parry...

The way I use a parry weapon ( and it's name is deceptive ) is when the spear is thrust, I move to the opponent's weak area ( if right handed to his right, and vice versa ) and side step, while using the parry weapon as a divide between me and the spear ( essentially I dodge the spear, but then place the parry sword's blade at the passed spear's side ).

Important is to move forward or else they will thrust again.

The parry weapon will do two things:
1 - Keep the spear from being pulled back -
not always but the blade has a good tendency of digging into the wood of the spear as it's pulled back.

2 - Tell you where the spear is being pulled, and how fast -
having a point of contact ( something usually understood better by trained weapons and martial artists ) is crucial to predict the opponent's movements...

3 - if anything else - it keeps the spear from striking your side,
while the blade will at least keep the spear head from cutting you while being pulled back.

[Night]

I envisioned Luther's method of parrying a spear when the conversation came up. It seems solid if you're skilled at it.

I'd say that as far as defensive capability, a tower shield and sword/spear would work best. Of course either tactic is viable, and it all depends on the circumstances (including skill of the combatants)

I refer to a sword sheathed on the off-hand side, and a spear wielded in the main-hand. If the opponent can parry the spear, it would be dropped, and the sword unsheathed as quickly as possible, to limit his time to close in on you. Best case scenario, the spear impales him, or once the sword is drawn, his counter is blocked by the shield, and he is stabbed in the gut. Of course the worst case is that he's simply too fast (which I imagine would happen often), and stabs around the shield.

[Dark Luther]

Why would you have the off hand sword sheathed...?

Also - what you described is essentially how I fight with Javelin and short sword...

[Night]

I was thinking of a longer spear, with 2 hands being necesary.

[Dark Luther]

I see what you mean after reading over.
It does have the benefit of being very simple - specially as the tower shield provides so much protection.

Problems I see is that to use a long spear well - you need mobility - which is hindered by having something as large as a tower shield.

Also is the problem of un-sheathing a short sword/long sword;
though katana are easy to draw - western weapons are not -
and many men have lost their lives trying to pull their weapons from their leather sheaths...


But your concept is quite sound - and is similar to the tactic used by many basic infantry like the Finnish, Greeks, and the Danish...( and it worked pretty well...).


But now look at it with the use of a smaller spear and a short sword already drawn.
You can charge easily - and thrust forward.
They can parry with a shield - but it can be negated by stabbing the javelin into the spear and weighing it down.
( a common tactic vikings/norse would use - and something a large friend of mine tought me well ).

Or they can parry with their own weapon and expose themselves to your side arm...


But the good thing about a spear - is that you don't have to close in - if you fail, just back up a foot or two and thrust in again. If he closes the distance - he has to deal with your side sword - and your javelin can now be put straight and used as a parry staff...