Some debate and insight on the recent Muslim outrage

[Lancet Jades]

http://boortz.com/nuze/200602/02032006.html
and
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004440.htm

Since we havent had a good debate on things in a while, I figured these would make for a good topic, especially considering how ludicrous the whole "Muslim's are outraged over a cartoon of Mohammed" thing.

[Rainbow Dash]

I'll put it as frankly as the first article, if not more so.

ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots.

What pisses me off more than anything in this world is how their entire society is based off the idea that they and only they can be right. Not only that, but they cannot even overcome society the way I have and develop their own thoughts. What pisses me off the most is that there is no way to remedy this other than to anihilate their entire population, beat free thought into their heads MORE fiercely than their narrow views were beaten into them, or, my personal favorite, NUKE MECCA.

I'm going all out now. I see Mohammad as the False Prophet. That is my honest-to-god belief. He is the single worst human in the history of man. He started his damn religon for an excuse to create an empire. You can read the toran and arrive at the same conclusion that I did. Some theologeists and toran analyists have arrived at the same conclusion. I remember reading that the lines that started all of this bullshit were along the lines of "You may not kill your neighbor unless he poses a threat to your home and family," something like that. What I don't understand/haven't read is when it says whatever absoloutely clusterfucked bullshit it says about women.

In short, I fucking hate radical Muslims, and Islam is the only major religon I can never respect.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Gotta admit I'm a fan of Neal Boortz, but I absolutely cannot stand Malkin. Muslims are threatening to kill people all over the world because the media has shown these cartoons, but she's angry at the media for not showing the cartoons? What a douche.

especially considering how ludicrous the whole "Muslim's are outraged over a cartoon of Mohammed" thing.It's not as ludicrous as you might think. As my Muslim friend described the religion to me a while ago, "Most Muslim children love Muhammed more than they love their own parents." It's a cultural difference that's difficult for us to fathom.

I'm going all out now. I see Mohammad as the False Prophet. That is my honest-to-god belief. He is the single worst human in the history of man. He started his damn religon for an excuse to create an empire. You can read the toran and arrive at the same conclusion that I did. Some theologeists and toran analyists have arrived at the same conclusion. I remember reading that the lines that started all of this bullshit were along the lines of "You may not kill your neighbor unless he poses a threat to your home and family," something like that.Love how you're such an expert on Muslim history but you don't even know what the Muslim Holy Book is called.

What I don't understand/haven't read is when it says whatever absoloutely clusterfucked bullshit it says about women.Most of it's cultural.

I see very little difference between the modern Islamic Middle East, medieval Christian Europe, and atheistic Maoist China. Any society that makes religious beliefs the focal point of its culture, no matter what religion it is, will indubitably become corrupt. It obviously has nothing to do with the religion itself, as immediately after the introduction of Islam into Arab society the Arab world became the pinnacle of Western civilization and stayed that way for centuries.

[Pinkie Pie]

I'll put it as frankly as the first article, if not more so.

ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots.

What pisses me off more than anything in this world is how their entire society is based off the idea that they and only they can be right. Not only that, but they cannot even overcome society the way I have and develop their own thoughts. What pisses me off the most is that there is no way to remedy this other than to anihilate their entire population, beat free thought into their heads MORE fiercely than their narrow views were beaten into them, or, my personal favorite, NUKE MECCA.

I'm going all out now. I see Mohammad as the False Prophet. That is my honest-to-god belief. He is the single worst human in the history of man. He started his damn religon for an excuse to create an empire. You can read the toran and arrive at the same conclusion that I did. Some theologeists and toran analyists have arrived at the same conclusion. I remember reading that the lines that started all of this bullshit were along the lines of "You may not kill your neighbor unless he poses a threat to your home and family," something like that. What I don't understand/haven't read is when it says whatever absoloutely clusterfucked bullshit it says about women.

In short, I fucking hate radical Muslims, and Islam is the only major religon I can never respect.

Yay, judging large groups of people is always so much fun, isn't it?

I'd point out that it's the Koran, but Raist beat me to it. Um... never mind, I just pointed it out anyways. >.>

I see both points here, but I'm not sure which way I feel about it really. I do know that if a similar cartoon were mass released defiling the image of Jesus, a large number of Christians would be quite upset about it as well.

Also, to say that there was no Muslim outrage at the terroristic acts listed is a bit skewed. Quite a few Muslims spoke out about at least several of those. Whether they didn't care to speak louder or the media didn't really want to cover them is not something that I'm aware of.

[Lancet Jades]

Its not ludicrous for them to be outraged, but to go to the lengths they do is wrong. Perhaps ludicrous was the wrong term though, because you do have a point. Besides, the point Malkin was making was that the Muslim's outrage and death threats over the cartoon are essentialy in protest to freedom of press, and that a news network(s) here, in the US, a country of freedom, would decline to slow a cartoon for fear of pissing off muslims, but are more than willing to do it to any religion that won't get up in arms (at least literally) about it. Never said I agreed with it completly, but nonetheless >.>

[Zelphiel]

People here would be just as pissed if they started doing parody of Jesus.

anyway... like Raist said it's a culture gap. since almost none of us were brought up in an environment like they were it's very hard to understand their feelings about it. I don't personally think the cartoons are wrong. They're art... plain and simple. Every artist has the right to express whatever he/she wants in their art. The only time it's wrong is when it's created for the sole intention of harming someone or a group of people.

Is it wrong that they're so upset over a few cartoons that were published in distant countries that have little to nothing to do with them... maybe. Is it a little too over the top... probably. To western eyes anyway.

[Rainbow Dash]

There's lots of different ways of spelling the moslem holy book. Quran, Toran, Koran, it does not matter.

I did not judge the entire group of people, but their society. Pretty much everyone in a society that controlled is going to have the same beliefs.

I also heard from my dad that it is illegal to draw a picture of mohammad at all in those countries.

[Zelphiel]

I also heard from my dad that it is illegal to draw a picture of mohammad at all in those countries.

yeah, they've been talking about that on the news since this came out. I guess it's an extreme anti idolatry law they have.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Besides, the point Malkin was making was that the Muslim's outrage and death threats over the cartoon are essentialy in protest to freedom of press, and that a news network(s) here, in the US, a country of freedom, would decline to slow a cartoon for fear of pissing off muslims, but are more than willing to do it to any religion that won't get up in arms (at least literally) about it.She's pissed at the NY Times for exposing the NSA fiasco because it put American lives in danger, but now she's angry at the media for not showing these cartoons even though doing so would put American lives in danger.

There's lots of different ways of spelling the moslem holy book. Quran, Toran, Koran, it does not matter.Qu'ran and Koran, yes; that's just a difference in transliteration. "Toran," however, doesn't sound remotely similar.

[Rainbow Dash]

>.>;; ANYway... my dad is starting to agree with me about the world ending within the next 6 - 8 years. It seems that things are getting more and more out of hand with this issue now. They're calling for the removal of the artist's hands. I'm calling for the removal of the protestors's brains.

[Zelphiel]

I think you were thinking of the Torah when you said Toran.

[Atari]

i heard on the radio this morning that Iran's largest newspaper (sorry i'm not remembering any names at the moment) is putting out a contest. they're trying to find the best cartoonists in Iran so that they can create a cartoon that makes fun of the Holocaust.

on one hand, i'm glad they're doing that instead of burning down embassies and destroying everything. on the other, i think it's pretty funny that they're retaliating against the Jews, who seem to have had nothing to do w/ the original cartoons.

I already find it silly when people even believe in the myths that we call "religion." Christianity, Islam, Judaism, it's all very irrational and unncessary in my eyes. then when peole get so fanatical over it that they can't accept any criticism or jokes about it? i don't even know how to express it.

[Zelphiel]

on one hand, i'm glad they're doing that instead of burning down embassies and destroying everything.

I doubt it'll stop at that, but it would be kind of funny if the next stage of this religious war was fought with cartoons.

[Rainbow Dash]

I already find it silly when people even believe in the myths that we call "religion." Christianity, Islam, Judaism, it's all very irrational and unncessary in my eyes. then when peole get so fanatical over it that they can't accept any criticism or jokes about it? i don't even know how to express it.
Muslims are the only ones that really have taken anything this far within the past 500 years or so. And you apparantly don't know how things are like down there... they are ruthless in teaching that shit to the children and they really don't have anything else in their lives. Not that I have any sympathy for them... Anyone who cannot see a human as a human, no matter how bludgeoned into them it is should not be treated like a human themselves. Eye for an eye, no? I do so love ironic punishment.

[Zelphiel]

Muslims are the only ones that really have taken anything this far within the past 500 years or so.

only if we aren't counting the holocaust, witch trials, Utah, etc...

Islam is just in the spotlight now. They've all had their share of fanatical bs past and present.

[Lancet Jades]

only if we aren't counting the holocaust, witch trials, Utah, etc...

Islam is just in the spotlight now. They've all had their share of fanatical bs past and present.
Though, that doesn't make what they're doing ok, and cultural differences or not, they're wrong to take it this far, and should be stopped, which is ultimately what this is about. No matter how much they love Muhammed, or how much their culture is againast pictures of him, this is essentially them throwing a hissy fit and using their "power" in the world to try and get their way.

[Rainbow Dash]

Indeed, we are able to see the cultural differences between us and them... are they not able to see as well? Do they think every person in the world is a Muslim?

[Pinkie Pie]

Indeed, we are able to see the cultural differences between us and them... are they not able to see as well? Do they think every person in the world is a Muslim?

No, they believe that Islam is the only true religion, similar to most other religions. Seeing differences between cultures and stubbornly believing that all of those differences are wrong are not conflicting ideas. Both sides are guilty of this, imo.

[Lancet Jades]

No, they believe that Islam is the only true religion, similar to most other religions. Seeing differences between cultures and stubbornly believing that all of those differences are wrong are not conflicting ideas. Both sides are guilty of this, imo.
Every religion might think that, but how many religions go out and terrorize the world (literally and figuratively) to try and eliminate everything else?

True, other religions may have been guilty of it in the past, but this is now. You don't see Jews, Christians, Hindus, or anyone of any other religion (even athiests when it comes to preventing religion in government) going around burning down embassies, threatening people, and generally being little fuckers about it if someone were to draw an insulting cartoon, say, about Jesus. Christians might be outraged depending on how insulting the cartoon is, but they wouldnt take to the streets and riot over it so violently. They'd bessentially be told to suck it up, thats its free speech.

Just because other religions have done it in the past doesn't make the Muslims throwing a tantrum right, and it doesn't mean they can't condemn Muslims for doing so.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Every religion might think that, but how many religions go out and terrorize the world (literally and figuratively) to try and eliminate everything else?

True, other religions may have been guilty of it in the past, but this is now. You don't see Jews, Christians, Hindus, or anyone of any other religion (even athiests when it comes to preventing religion in government) going around burning down embassies, threatening people, and generally being little fuckers about it if someone were to draw an insulting cartoon, say, about Jesus. Christians might be outraged depending on how insulting the cartoon is, but they wouldnt take to the streets and riot over it so violently. They'd bessentially be told to suck it up, thats its free speech.

Just because other religions have done it in the past doesn't make the Muslims throwing a tantrum right, and it doesn't mean they can't condemn Muslims for doing so.I don't condemn Muslims, because that's misdirection; I blame the Middle East. The religion has jack shit to do with it, and it'd be nice if people started learning to seperate the two.

[Lancet Jades]

I don't condemn Muslims, because that's misdirection; I blame the Middle East. The religion has jack shit to do with it, and it'd be nice if people started learning to seperate the two.
Considering the terrorists at least use the religion as an excuse, thats enough to blame the religion at least in part, as would happen with any other religion.

And I'm not condemning ALL Muslims, or all of Islam, only those who use it as an excuse to terrorize and throw temper tantrums.

[Atari]

it seems to me that you guys aren't comparing apples to apples here. you're comparing the religious values of the middle east to those of westernized nations. you have to look at what is important in each society.

In middle eastern countries, religion is highly valued. i think we can all agree on that, and this case of people rioting over a cartoon is a pretty good example.

Religion is not that important to us westernized folks. our most popular organized religion here in the states is obviously Christianity.
We have an art piece that consists of an upside down jesus figure inside a bottle filled with piss in one of our museums. there arent' people burning down embasies over it. religion isn't something we hold in THAT high of importance, as a society.

Parsons theorized that a society usually works on one field:
economics, the state, legal system, or religion/schools. the middle east obviously values religion, and we're on economics in the US.

so, what i'm saying is that you should be comparing how fanatical the middle east societies are in comparison to how extremely we value our free market system.

are we willing to die and kill to impose our view on free market economies on others? look at africa. it used to be a bunch of nomadic tribes wandering about in some sort of old communal system. Westernized nations came in and imposed their own styles of governemtn. they gave some "elites" money, so that they could put themselves in power, kill their competition, create stratification where there was none.
why?
trade.
you can't trade with nomadic tribes on an international, global level. so you force them to divide up the land into countries and make sure the political leaders are people who like you. say you're helping them achieve "democracy" because it's better for them.

anyway, my point is jsut that you should look at how fanatical westernized nations can be about the things they hold high esteem to, not religion. then compare us to the middle east and it makes a little more sense.

[Lancet Jades]

Thats a good point and all, but they're protesting a cartoon which was published in a western nation, not one of their own. If we should acknowlege and even respect their culture, values, and society, then they must do the same for us, and this protesting is doing the opposite; trying to force us to change an element of our society to conform with theirs.

[Rainbow Dash]

I don't condemn Muslims, because that's misdirection; I blame the Middle East. The religion has jack shit to do with it, and it'd be nice if people started learning to seperate the two.
Islam has such a large influence (ie that ALL there is to life) there that it would be foolish to try to seperate the two... and muslims around the world are pissed off too. Like I have said, any religon that CAN be twisted that cruelly should not exist. The only way they know how to keep that religon is by removing all free speech in their nations, brainwashing all the more intelligent, and kill other people who dont think the same way, rather than talking to friends who are going through a hard time and suggesting that they should visit a church or equivalent. My best guess is that this is because the religous leaders want to stay in power.

It is only speculation, and it makes as much sense to me as my dog when he tries to kill me for brushing off my clothes or sliding the towel across the floor.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Like I have said, any religon that CAN be twisted that cruelly should not exist.Then no religion should exist. In fact, atheism shouldn't even exist. But then we'd be left with a bit of a paradox.

[Rainbow Dash]

Then no religion should exist. In fact, atheism shouldn't even exist. But then we'd be left with a bit of a paradox.
Or agnosticism, which is my belief at the moment >.>;;

I'm saying that the Koran left too much room for debate. The original was screwed up to begin with, so its bottom limit is much lower.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

I'm saying that the Koran left too much room for debate.I fail to see how that makes Islam different than, say, every other religion.

The religion isn't fucked, the region is. I blame the state of Israel and oil.

[Rainbow Dash]

I fail to see how that makes Islam different than, say, every other religion.

The religion isn't fucked, the region is. I blame the state of Israel and oil.

Seig heil, spelling nazi -.-;; I never claimed to be an expert, I just said I had read some of the text.

That reminds me... Did you hear that some are actually blaming the US for the cartoons, calling it a conspiracy set up by us? :chuckle

Bah, I spent about 20 mins typing out a response only to realize what you were saying -.-;;; Let's just blame France then?

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Sieg heil, spelling nazi -.-;;Well, now that you mention it...

I never claimed to be an expert, I just said I had read some of the text.When you make powerful, sweeping accusations such as "Mohammed is the single worst human being in history," you imply that you feel yourself qualified enough to make such accusations.

Let's just blame France then?Already there.

[nightsavior]

Just on the basis of how many islamic men treat their women is enough to make me have absolutely no empathy for their outrage over a drawing in a news paper. Granted the way Mahammed was portrayed is slanderous (He was a peaceful prophet by most historical accounts) but it's their fault for giving their religion and their culture a bad name to begin with.

Keeping school girls trapped in a burning building because they wern't "veiled" and taking out hundreds of our people in a suicide plane crash is not a way to make "anyone" see them in a fond fuzzy light.

My advice to them..."Want to be accepted? Then by Allah guys, stop being fucking assholes!"

I know that sounds narrowminded but frankly I'm sick of their cruel barbaric customs and refusal to leave everyone alone.(Yeah Yeah it can be argued we're invaders and religous wackos too but I sorta get tired of hearing anti-american sentiments by idiot rebels just trying to be trendy by striking out against the society they live in. Hate america? Go live in a 3rd world country.)

So a newspaper made fun of their religion...face it, that happens to every damn religion and you don't see christains, jews, and other denominations picking up ak-47s over it. Ok, sometimes other religions do create militias and go batty but to me it seems like the islamic people like being angry way too much and want an excuse to blow up at the smallest things. They're acting like big babies. "You make fun of us so we shoot you." Homicidal whiney brats every last one of them...that is except the reasonable and sane islamic people that simply pilgrimage to Mecca to prove their faith. "Good muslims" I have absolutely no problem with.

True the newspaper staff were inconsiderate disrespectful idiots for publishing the damn images without knowing "this" was likely to happen...but the protesters are being equally immature in the way they are handling it. Guess it's Dumb-assery on all fronts. What else is new?

Stupid french. The way I see it whatever happens in their country is "their fault" and we should let them handle it. (mumbles) Well perhaps not entirely..I shudder to think what would happen to the women populace if they got a foot hold in europe.

[Rainbow Dash]

There is a website that I didn't get down that sends a form letter to your local newspaper requesting them to show the images now.

[Lancet Jades]

There is a website that I didn't get down that sends a form letter to your local newspaper requesting them to show the images now.
Why though? Just to further piss them off?

Honestly, I dont see the point in printing the images just out of spite. Its one thing to oppose the protests, and to display the images for debate purposes and such, but just doing it to spite them kinda seems pointless and even dangerous.

[Rainbow Dash]

Why though? Just to further piss them off?

Honestly, I dont see the point in printing the images just out of spite. Its one thing to oppose the protests, and to display the images for debate purposes and such, but just doing it to spite them kinda seems pointless and even dangerous.
Although I do love spite, its more for the sake of free speach. These cartoons are influencing our times now, and they are being censored from us? We're already being blamed for this, why not go all the way :chuckle

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

We're already being blamed for this, why not go all the way :chuckleBecause it's douchey and it kills people.

[nightsavior]

I saw the images and didn't care for them. Sure I disagree with islamic beliefs on many fronts (specifically how women are treated.) but they don't deserve to have their prophet slandered and made into a joke.

The newspaper should have known that the islamic nation feels strongly about their religion. Though the protesters are being immature the fact remains the publishers of the disrespectful cartoons started it to begin with.

[Dark Luther]

Frankly, there's been so many cartoons making a joke of Jesus, that I find it trivial.

Though I do understand that Muslims are a people who take religion a lot more seriously than most Christians on a whole....

[Rainbow Dash]

If it was in their own country, sure... but they have to understand they don't rule the world! They got pissed off because we were taking too much of a role in their government by even having embassies on their ground. Now THEY want to interfere with other countries? What hypocrites -.-;;

[Night]

lol, how exactly are they interfering with other countries?

The way I feel is simply that the cartoons should never have been drawn, and every argument against the protests is riddled with contradictions. I don't support violent protest (in this case) but I prefer it to not taking action. Plain and simple these "cartoons" were meant to be offensive to a culture that is known to take religion more seriously than the people who made the cartoon. We cannot all judge people by our standards, because that is what i like to call "thinking with the glutes".

I love how people say "the way they treat women" because it so blatantly leaves out that "they" INCLUDES WOMEN. It's ridiculous, the anti-islamic media (everything we see) will show you that every woman hates islam and wearing a burka. That is not true. There are plenty of women who do not want to wear burkas, and I do not think they should be forced to, but by the same token I don't think we should force them not to.

Its blatantly ignorant to say that muslims need to learn that they dont rule the world. I think its obvious, being that america has been turning middle-eastern muslim nations into the "oil ass" which is raped often. The whole outrage is over how little influence they do have, that they can be so utterly disrespected and people will sit back and tell them to take it like a man.

I also couldnt help but notice that somebody brought up a point along the lines of "Somebody who doesn't treat other people as people should not be treated as a person". It makes sense when taken out of context. But isn't it true that muslims arent being treated as people by everybody outside the muslim world. "They" do this "they" do that. What about Israel where muslim children get killed for... being muslim. Are the Israelis treating them as people? I'm drawing a blank here... wait... wait... I got it!!! the answer is no.

The protesters are being immature? Immaturity is making an offensive cartoon on purpose, either knowing fully, or not (the latter being the worst of all) that it will cause world-wide unrest. Immaturity is telling them to suck it up and move on. Islamic nations are being criticized up and down, muslims all over the world are. The religism (word?) is astounding. If these cartoons were made in a world of full tolerance for muslims then it would be different, but the fact of the matter is that they were made about a group who feels (rightfully if you ask me) oppressed. Sure there are "offensive" artworks about christianity, but its not offensive, because they're the majority.

It's like when a white person calls a black person a nigger. Thats offensive, but when a black person calls a white person a honky or a cracker then its just a joke. Invariably the majority is harder to offend. Quite frankly this is a situation not fit to be judged by western eyes so stuck in their ways. Telling a muslim that they take religion to seriously is like telling a dog they take walking to seriously. It is the way they live, and nobody placed anybody else in charge of that.

In muslim countries that arent currently being fucked with women are allowed to leave, if they get a passport. They can come to america and not wear a burka, or at least go to britain or whatever nearby country is not ruled by Islamic law.

EDIT: After re-reading Yvl's first post I found a contradiction so glaring that I had to cut myself, to see if my senses are still working.

What pisses me off more than anything in this world is how their entire society is based off the idea that they and only they can be right. Check this out, I'm about to blow your mind...
By saying that they all think that they're right all the time and saying that they're wrong in the same post, you make yourself into what youre fighting, somebody who says "I'm right you're wrong".

[[PhiberOpticks]]

I'll put it as frankly as the first article, if not more so.

ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots.

What pisses me off more than anything in this world is how their entire society is based off the idea that they and only they can be right. Not only that, but they cannot even overcome society the way I have and develop their own thoughts. What pisses me off the most is that there is no way to remedy this other than to anihilate their entire population, beat free thought into their heads MORE fiercely than their narrow views were beaten into them, or, my personal favorite, NUKE MECCA.

I'm going all out now. I see Mohammad as the False Prophet. That is my honest-to-god belief. He is the single worst human in the history of man. He started his damn religon for an excuse to create an empire. You can read the toran and arrive at the same conclusion that I did. Some theologeists and toran analyists have arrived at the same conclusion. I remember reading that the lines that started all of this bullshit were along the lines of "You may not kill your neighbor unless he poses a threat to your home and family," something like that. What I don't understand/haven't read is when it says whatever absoloutely clusterfucked bullshit it says about women.

In short, I fucking hate radical Muslims, and Islam is the only major religon I can never respect.

First off, I'd like to say that " ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots." is a redundant statement, and a sweeping generalization. Saudi Arabia is in the Middle East. Therefore, it just goes to show how little you know.

It's also funny how you proposed the idea that all Islamic governments and groups are imperialists. It's not like they go around saying, "Convert to Islam, or die!" In fact, you can convert out of Islam if you want, at any time. Nobody is stopping women or anyone from leaving. Except for groups like the Taliban, who are worth fighting a war against.

Yet again, I find it funny how you can say that they can't take a joke, (i.e. the Danish cartoon), lightly, when it blatantly disregards any form of respect for the religion, by illustrating Mohammed, and then blaspheming it by showing him strapped with bombs. It's a slap in the face to Muslims everywhere. And even if they meant it to be a joke, I don't see cartoons of Jesus killing men and sleeping with their wives in the newspaper. Don't hate what you don't understand. It makes you look ignorant. Not that it makes a difference at this point.

If you would propose that we bomb Mecca, wouldn't that make you an imperialist yourself? Because you're imposing your will on someone else because you disagree with their beliefs? Real smooth. You sound just like Great *cough* Britain.

Today, Muslims are getting a bad rap because of Al Qaeda. Do you know how small of the Muslim population are in Al Qaeda? I'd be shocked if it was over 2%.

Also, since when did they think they rule the world? I don't remember any Al Qaeda videos, or Middle Eastern or Southwest Asian news reports saying that they rule the world. It's funny how you can be so wrong.

And I definitely know that Western countries have more than a few embassies there. In fact, they occupy the entire region with soldiers, because we're beating them for their oil. And they didn't interfere with any countries in any way. That was the dumbest statement yet.....actually I take that back. " ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots." is the dumbest statement I have ever heard.

Next time you want to criticize, try not to be wrong......you hipocrite.

[Rainbow Dash]

It takes a damn lot for us to riot to this extent. It takes a damn lot for anyone to riot to this extent other than in the mideast. You are saying that violence is right because its part of their culture? Maybe their culture is the problem. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that dictators are forcing them to do this until it becomes a habit, I can't really say =/

Nobody is saying that wearing a burka is wrong. But if I must spell it out, I will. ANYone, male or female, who thinks that women and men are to be treated as seperate species, deserves to be shot. I don't care where.

Keep in mind... they control almost all the world's supply of oil. That's a huge influence on our world.

Muslim children are justifiably killed because... guess what... there are children terrorists. They have been driven into paranoia with the ungodly tactics the arabs have used.

I believe your definition of immaturity is itself a bit immature >.> Immaturity means doing something a 5-year old would do. That includes throwing a hissy-fit because some kid on the other side of the school drew a picture of you and showed it to a couple friends. A big boy would just shrug it off, ignore it, or even (as is the case with me) laugh with them.

And maybe it is the black person's fault for getting so pissed off at the white person to begin with. That's not a very good comparison in any case, since if a black person calls another black person a nigger it is usually acceptable, while an arab drawing a cartoon like that would result in death to him and everyone related to him in the past 15 generations.

First off, I'd like to say that " ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots." is a redundant statement, and a sweeping generalization. Saudi Arabia is in the Middle East. Therefore, it just goes to show how little you know.

It's also funny how you proposed the idea that all Islamic governments and groups are imperialists. It's not like they go around saying, "Convert to Islam, or die!" In fact, you can convert out of Islam if you want, at any time. Nobody is stopping women or anyone from leaving. Except for groups like the Taliban, who are worth fighting a war against.

Yet again, I find it funny how you can say that they can't take a joke, (i.e. the Danish cartoon), lightly, when it blatantly disregards any form of respect for the religion, by illustrating Mohammed, and then blaspheming it by showing him strapped with bombs. It's a slap in the face to Muslims everywhere. And even if they meant it to be a joke, I don't see cartoons of Jesus killing men and sleeping with their wives in the newspaper. Don't hate what you don't understand. It makes you look ignorant. Not that it makes a difference at this point.

If you would propose that we bomb Mecca, wouldn't that make you an imperialist yourself? Because you're imposing your will on someone else because you disagree with their beliefs? Real smooth. You sound just like Great *cough* Britain.

Today, Muslims are getting a bad rap because of Al Qaeda. Do you know how small of the Muslim population are in Al Qaeda? I'd be shocked if it was over 2%.

Also, since when did they think they rule the world? I don't remember any Al Qaeda videos, or Middle Eastern or Southwest Asian news reports saying that they rule the world. It's funny how you can be so wrong.

And I definitely know that Western countries have more than a few embassies there. In fact, they occupy the entire region with soldiers, because we're beating them for their oil. And they didn't interfere with any countries in any way. That was the dumbest statement yet.....actually I take that back. " ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots." is the dumbest statement I have ever heard.

Next time you want to criticize, try not to be wrong......you hipocrite.
Firstly, that first post was just a vent. Try reading the whole thread before posting next time. And your own post is so filled with falsities and contradictions I hardly even know where to begin... The part about Al-Qaeda being the only thing giving them a bad rep, when the situation we are discussing itself is about the general masses being uncontrollable? The thought that saudia arabians are the only ones considered arabs while the language is called arabic?

Try looking more closely...Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia... those are the major countries in the arab world. Those are the countries I meant to refer to. Those countries have no free speech and only know what they have been taught by their religous leaders. Those are the majority of the radicals.

And you'll never guess what I'm holding RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME... A picture published in a (mock) newspaper where jesus' cock is being sucked by nazi demons in hell. Whoopsies on your part.

And when did I say I was against imperialism? I had thought about what could be done there for months, and that is the most vile, inhuman plan, to bomb mecca, but it is also the only plan that would result in an almost certain success. My other thoughs included making Jerusalem a neutral territory, but the arabs wouldn't like that since they hate western influence, bombarding them with insane numbers of leaflets telling them about what is being kept from them (but that holds a fire hazard,) or going into each country individuall and overthrowing the dictatorships, but that is ridiculous, needless to say.

And for the record... they DO say, "Convert to Islam or die." You are quite literally "killed" as some may say for not worshipping islam. You are seriously overestimating the amount of liberties they have there.

If I missed anything, bring it up again please, I'm too tired to keep up with this tonihgt -.-zzz

[Night]

And maybe it is the black person's fault for getting so pissed off at the white person to begin with. That's not a very good comparison in any case, since if a black person calls another black person a nigger it is usually acceptable, while an arab drawing a cartoon like that would result in death to him and everyone related to him in the past 15 generations.You took my analogy for one point and tried to apply it to the whole argument, that doesnt work.

I believe your definition of immaturity is itself a bit immature >.> Immaturity means doing something a 5-year old would do. That includes throwing a hissy-fit because some kid on the other side of the school drew a picture of you and showed it to a couple friends. A big boy would just shrug it off, ignore it, or even (as is the case with me) laugh with them.
Even if your definition was... correct, it still wouldn't apply. I gave an example of an immature act, not a definition. You actually did the same but since you falsely labeled it I'll just treat it as a definition. According to your "definition" the attackers, or kids drawing the mean pictures, are not immature, just the victims.


Muslim children are justifiably killed because... guess what... there are children terrorists. They have been driven into paranoia with the ungodly tactics the arabs have used. That shit makes me sick. Here you are acting like a humanist, then you come and justify the murder of children. Because there have been some child terrorists all the children should die. Even the ones throwing small rocks with their malnourished arms at the people invading their homes with guns.

Keep in mind... they control almost all the world's supply of oil. That's a huge influence on our world. Just because It's on their land doesnt mean they control it, didn't i just address that?

I think its obvious, being that america has been turning middle-eastern muslim nations into the "oil ass" which is raped often.Ah, there it goes.

Nobody is saying that wearing a burka is wrong. But if I must spell it out, I will. ANYone, male or female, who thinks that women and men are to be treated as seperate species, deserves to be shot. I don't care where. Did I state that anyone said wearing a burka is wrong? I used it as an example of a common misconception about Islam. Men and women are not being treated as a seperate species. I don't see muslim men marrying antalopes, which are also a different species. The idea stemmed from temptation of men, it has grown more controlling, but that doesnt make it a difference in species.

It takes a damn lot for us to riot to this extent. It takes a damn lot for anyone to riot to this extent other than in the mideast. You are saying that violence is right because its part of their culture? Maybe their culture is the problem. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that dictators are forcing them to do this until it becomes a habit, I can't really say
Like I said, that is because "us" is the majority, thus harder to offend. The mid-eastern muslims feel that they are the persecuted minority, thus major blasphemies like this are very violently reacted to.
I never even said that violence was part of their culture. That invalidates the entire post right there. I'll go on anyway. What dictator is standing there making people riot? Show me the video where bakkhabakkhamohammhadjihad is making them riot. Please, enlighten me.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

It takes a damn lot for us to riot to this extent. It takes a damn lot for anyone to riot to this extent other than in the mideast. You are saying that violence is right because its part of their culture? Maybe their culture is the problem. Or maybe it has to do with the fact that dictators are forcing them to do this until it becomes a habit, I can't really say

Nobody is saying that wearing a burka is wrong. But if I must spell it out, I will. ANYone, male or female, who thinks that women and men are to be treated as seperate species, deserves to be shot. I don't care where.

Keep in mind... they control almost all the world's supply of oil. That's a huge influence on our world.

Muslim children are justifiably killed because... guess what... there are children terrorists. They have been driven into paranoia with the ungodly tactics the arabs have used.

I believe your definition of immaturity is itself a bit immature >.> Immaturity means doing something a 5-year old would do. That includes throwing a hissy-fit because some kid on the other side of the school drew a picture of you and showed it to a couple friends. A big boy would just shrug it off, ignore it, or even (as is the case with me) laugh with them.

And maybe it is the black person's fault for getting so pissed off at the white person to begin with. That's not a very good comparison in any case, since if a black person calls another black person a nigger it is usually acceptable, while an arab drawing a cartoon like that would result in death to him and everyone related to him in the past 15 generations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcyourmomwich
First off, I'd like to say that " ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots." is a redundant statement, and a sweeping generalization. Saudi Arabia is in the Middle East. Therefore, it just goes to show how little you know.

It's also funny how you proposed the idea that all Islamic governments and groups are imperialists. It's not like they go around saying, "Convert to Islam, or die!" In fact, you can convert out of Islam if you want, at any time. Nobody is stopping women or anyone from leaving. Except for groups like the Taliban, who are worth fighting a war against.

Yet again, I find it funny how you can say that they can't take a joke, (i.e. the Danish cartoon), lightly, when it blatantly disregards any form of respect for the religion, by illustrating Mohammed, and then blaspheming it by showing him strapped with bombs. It's a slap in the face to Muslims everywhere. And even if they meant it to be a joke, I don't see cartoons of Jesus killing men and sleeping with their wives in the newspaper. Don't hate what you don't understand. It makes you look ignorant. Not that it makes a difference at this point.

If you would propose that we bomb Mecca, wouldn't that make you an imperialist yourself? Because you're imposing your will on someone else because you disagree with their beliefs? Real smooth. You sound just like Great *cough* Britain.

Today, Muslims are getting a bad rap because of Al Qaeda. Do you know how small of the Muslim population are in Al Qaeda? I'd be shocked if it was over 2%.

Also, since when did they think they rule the world? I don't remember any Al Qaeda videos, or Middle Eastern or Southwest Asian news reports saying that they rule the world. It's funny how you can be so wrong.

And I definitely know that Western countries have more than a few embassies there. In fact, they occupy the entire region with soldiers, because we're beating them for their oil. And they didn't interfere with any countries in any way. That was the dumbest statement yet.....actually I take that back. " ALL Mid-eastern arabs are misinformed idiots." is the dumbest statement I have ever heard.

Next time you want to criticize, try not to be wrong......you hipocrite.
Firstly, that first post was just a vent. Try reading the whole thread before posting next time. And your own post is so filled with falsities and contradictions I hardly even know where to begin... The part about Al-Qaeda being the only thing giving them a bad rep, when the situation we are discussing itself is about the general masses being uncontrollable? The thought that saudia arabians are the only ones considered arabs while the language is called arabic?

Try looking more closely...Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Egypt, Saudi Arabia... those are the major countries in the arab world. Those are the countries I meant to refer to. Those countries have no free speech and only know what they have been taught by their religous leaders. Those are the majority of the radicals.

And you'll never guess what I'm holding RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME... A picture published in a (mock) newspaper where jesus' cock is being sucked by nazi demons in hell. Whoopsies on your part.

And when did I say I was against imperialism? I had thought about what could be done there for months, and that is the most vile, inhuman plan, to bomb mecca, but it is also the only plan that would result in an almost certain success. My other thoughs included making Jerusalem a neutral territory, but the arabs wouldn't like that since they hate western influence, bombarding them with insane numbers of leaflets telling them about what is being kept from them (but that holds a fire hazard,) or going into each country individuall and overthrowing the dictatorships, but that is ridiculous, needless to say.

And for the record... they DO say, "Convert to Islam or die." You are quite literally "killed" as some may say for not worshipping islam. You are seriously overestimating the amount of liberties they have there.

If I missed anything, bring it up again please, I'm too tired to keep up with this tonihgt -.-zzz

Muslim children are justifiably killed?! Are you serious? I ought to call my cousins, track you down, and beat the living shit out of you. You make me sick.

By the way, I didn't know a definition of immaturity could be immature. Way to not make sense. And you act as though Middle eastern people are the only people who do suicide bombing and such. Northern Ireland, perhaps?

I don't care if your first post was a vent. You still said it. And that's all that matters. If George Bush said we should beat up retards. And then later say that it was just a vent, doesn't make him seem any less of a sick bastard. I would have read the whole thread, but I think I would kill too many brain cells listening to your hipocritical and crude, generalizing statements.

If you're a guy I suggest getting a vysectomy (sp). And if you're a girl, get your tubes tied. I don't think we need more people like you.

As for your (mock) newspaper, maybe if it was a (real) newspaper, I might take it into consideration. Not to mention the point brought up by Malicious, about the majority being harder to offend. The point you've been dodging so vigorously. I love how you tried to be all subtle about how it was a mock newspaper. But your parentheses accentuated the fact that your point falls flat.

So you do support imperialism? Then why are you complaining about the so-called imperialist Muslims. So you think that bombing Mecca would solve all those problems? Well you're wrong. You're picking developing scabs, and making them bleed once again. And if bombing Mecca is so unhuman, wouldn't make you just as "bad" as those "terrorists" that you are trying (but failing) to put down? The reason making Jerusalem neutral wouldn't work is that you'd be trying to put together the Palestinians with their oppressors, and expect them not to fight. And since you're so convinced that your education is so objective, I'm sure you'd have no problem imposing your beliefs on them, to tell them what you think has happened. And judging from your convuluted argument, that would be one confusing leaflet. And the funny thing about most of these dictatorships were put in place by America, primarily, in order to maintain the Capitalist influence in the East. But that's a different subject.

And you are sorely mistaken if you think that they are forcing people to convert to Islam. All they're saying is that you must practice Islam to be a citizen of those countries. If you don't want to, then leave. No one is forcing you to live there. And at what point did I say, that they have a lot of rights? Because you're sorely mistaken, once again. I do not know everything about their laws, but I know enough to know that your implications of their laws are bullshit.

And just going onto the point that most offended me, are you saying that the few children who were involved in bombings are reasonable cause for genocide? Because that would make you no better than Hitler. In which case you should start growing the 'stache.I'm sure in half a century you'll be on posters for Got Milk ads everywhere.

I cannot fully emphasize the amount of spite I have developed for you, for not only insulting me, but my entire family, who happen to be perfectly law abiding citizens. In fact, quite a few of them live in the Middle East and Southwest Asia, and they aren't terrorists.

Don't try and make me out to look naÃ*ve, when you're the ignorant person making sweeping generalizations about races and religions as well as states and countries. I didn't overestimate anything, because as far as I can tell, you don't know jack shit about Northeast African, Middle Eastern, or Southwest Asian laws. And I would definitely know more about you, no matter what you think, because I have been raised around politicians in the U.N. for many years, before they passed on *God bless their souls*.

Although I respect your opinion about Mohammed, I must be the first to say that you don't know what you're talking about. Not only do I believe that you've never read the Quran, but you couldn't even spell it.

You= www.geetarz.org/funniez/ pics/head-up-ass.jpg

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

It takes a damn lot for us to riot to this extent.That's because we're an incredibly lazy society.

Keep in mind... they control almost all the world's supply of oil. That's a huge influence on our world.Influence that's completely dominated by an elite few, and is thus no influence at all.

Muslim children are justifiably killed because... guess what... there are children terrorists. They have been driven into paranoia with the ungodly tactics the arabs have used.Israel has done no better.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Raistlin, I could not agree with you more. Just when I was starting to lose faith in humanity...

BTW, the definition of Immaturity:
im·ma·ture adj.

Not fully grown or developed.

I could say the same for your argument. Normally, arguments would come full circle, but yours barely constitutes for a polygon (polygon=A closed plane figure bounded by three or more line segments).

[Rainbow Dash]

Mcyourmomwich, the things you're saying border on the line that is the rules of this site, or even cross them in a couple cases. Tone it down. In fact, I think you're going on my ignore list from here on... you just flamed AND threatened me, and I don't appreciate that as I have done nothing to warrant it. You don't say much of importance in your posts either other than just throwing your weight around on an issue I'd be surprised if you ever even heard about in your life.

Like I said, that is because "us" is the majority, thus harder to offend. The mid-eastern muslims feel that they are the persecuted minority, thus major blasphemies like this are very violently reacted to.
I never even said that violence was part of their culture. That invalidates the entire post right there. I'll go on anyway. What dictator is standing there making people riot? Show me the video where bakkhabakkhamohammhadjihad is making them riot. Please, enlighten me.

Ah, I misread what you said earlier. I might have said things wrong last night, as Iit was 1 in the morning... its the combination of the dictators and the religous leaders. That should make it easier to envision. I'm just repeating what I hear in the news.

Now, about the "Killing children" part... Israel does do the same thing, but I don't condone that either. I'm saying an enemy is an enemy. I never said all children should die, but if, for example, you see a a toddler wandering into a mosque or synagogue with a vest of explosives on, are you going to shoot him? Or let yourself, your family, and a bit of your god's domain be destroyed because he's just a kid? Now, letting your own people burn because of a disproportioned law...

This cartoon is satire, and in our society, it is okay to make fun of an issue. Muslims have been criticized countless times before, on TELEVISION at that. Keep in mind, they don't care that they're being called fools, they're pissed because someone drew a picture of mohammad. The artist may not even have known it was against their laws to draw him, or may not have known that they would get hold of those pictures.

I don't really see either side as immature at this point. I'm too lazy to go back to see who brough up immaturity to begin with, I am also too lazy to try to remember what I was thinking last night. I might have just been trying to sort out what immaturity meant. But if it means so different things to not only us, but myself in the period of 6 hours, I would imagine their definition would be quite different as well.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

I never said all children should die, but if, for example, you see a a toddler wandering into a mosque or synagogue with a vest of explosives on, are you going to shoot him? Or let yourself, your family, and a bit of your god's domain be destroyed because he's just a kid? Now, letting your own people burn because of a disproportioned law...I'm not exactly sure why this matters since it's not what we're talking about. If you're trying to use it to downplay the actions Israel has taken against the Muslim world, then you'd have to do same for the actions taken by the Muslim world... but you clearly don't.

We're not talking about children terrorists; we're talking about Muslim children being killed just for being Muslim. Israel commits genocide too, you know.

Muslims have been criticized countless times before, on TELEVISION at that. Keep in mind, they don't care that they're being called fools, they're pissed because someone drew a picture of mohammad.Most people riot over singular events where they wouldn't over constant ones.

The artist may not even have known it was against their laws to draw himI'm betting he did. One of the cartoons showed just an artist drawing Mohammed, which I can't see any other reason for drawing other than to mock the Muslim law about it.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

I never threatened you. All I said was that I "should". Not to be confused with "I should call up my cousins and track you down and beat the living hell out of you". Meaning that I And in fact, you did warrant it. I happen to come from a Muslim family. And for you to say that people can justifiably kill Muslim children because some of them are terrorists made my blood boil. Although that does not justify the comments I made about you, maybe "I was just venting".

Ah, I misread what you said earlier. I might have said things wrong last night, as Iit was 1 in the morning... its the combination of the dictators and the religous leaders. That should make it easier to envision. I'm just repeating what I hear in the news.

So much for that superior education, huh?

This cartoon is satire, and in our society, it is okay to make fun of an issue. Muslims have been criticized countless times before, on TELEVISION at that. Keep in mind, they don't care that they're being called fools, they're pissed because someone drew a picture of mohammad. The artist may not even have known it was against their laws to draw him, or may not have known that they would get hold of those pictures.

If the artist didn't know that the drawing of Mohammed goes against one of the most major rules of Islam, he is ignorant towards Islam in general. It is, in fact, one of the most important, and most emphasized rules of that religion. And sure it was satire, but it still had no respect for the religion's beliefs, and they basically slapped the Islamic world in the face by showing him wearing explosives.

Just please do not insinuate that the killing of children can be justified. The acts of the few do not justify the killing of the many.

But from this, all I could ask is for you to not make generalizations about people, such as all people of a certain region of the U.S. or the Middle East are idiots. It makes me fear for the future generations.

EDIT
Mcyourmomwich, the things you're saying border on the line that is the rules of this site, or even cross them in a couple cases. Tone it down. In fact, I think you're going on my ignore list from here on... you just flamed AND threatened me, and I don't appreciate that as I have done nothing to warrant it. You don't say much of importance in your posts either other than just throwing your weight around on an issue I'd be surprised if you ever even heard about in your life.

Well if weight were truth and common sense, your entire argument would be anorexic. And you say that you'd be surprised that I've ever heard about the topic, after I just said that I have family from Southwest Asia and the Middle East who were involved in politics, and having been exposed to this, I think I would know more than you. But hey, it doesn't take much to know that you happen to know less than I do. I mean, you did spell Quran wrong (it's old, I know). So you're calling me ignorant, after I had already shown more truth in my posts than in yours. I would just like to finish by reiterating that you do not know more about this topic than I do, because you have been shut down so many times, by Mal, and Raist, as well as me, so many times in so few hours.

[Night]

Well Raist took my point about the children, so I guess I'm done here. I've got no points to debate anymore, unless I misunderstood your statements.

I've just got to say before I leave that I've never seen any proof, or serious circumstantial evidence, that any religious leaders urged them to riot, it would make sense that they would, but I do not believe they needed to. As Raist said, and I in a post before him, It was the straw that broke the camel's back, after so much criticism and attacks on their religion it would only make sense this would break out.

[Rainbow Dash]

I'm betting he did. One of the cartoons showed just an artist drawing Mohammed, which I can't see any other reason for drawing other than to mock the Muslim law about it.
Huh. Very well then. I didn't see that one.

Mc, I read part of your post out of curiousity, and I must say, even if your family knows what they're talking about, my wager is that you don't. Attacking people like you did in a debate tends to show how little one would know. And when you end every other sentence calling me retarted, I tend to believe you're full of crap. Coupled with the fact that 50% of the rest of your post WAS totally wrong (ex. only al-qaeda is bad, everyone else is good, putting al-qaeda's ranks at a whole number percentage of the populous when there is only a handful of them even left, etc.), that doesn't put you in a very good position in my eyes. If you post again don't expect me to read it.

[Lancet Jades]

Ok, Yvl, mcyourmomwich, both of you really need to cool it. "Venting" is fine, but not in here, especially venting like that.

And mcyourmomwich, I'm warning you for threatening Yvl (among other things) in this post:
http://www.evermoreforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227616&postcount=42
Its fine if you don't agree with Yvl, or even if you take some offence to what he says, thats part of debating and discussing. But you took your anger with him ("venting" as you called it), too far. Just saying you "should" do something doesn't disqualify it as a threat, and you flamed him a few times too.

Heated discussion is good, just be careful not to go too far with it (both of you).

[Rainbow Dash]

BTW for the record I meant that killing children who are attacking you is fine, I never condoned genocide. But TO THEM, this is a holy war, and all people of the other religon are their enemies. That is how it COULD be justified. THose views really are not my own, I'm just looking at it through their persepctive.

My honest belief is that we should have NOTHING to do with them, as our societies are too different. However, we still need the oil until car companies stop buying out inventors that come up with alternatives. And bush fucked us all over by invading iraq and thus anihilating our chances of redemption with them.

Oh, and lades, I was the one who said it was a vent. He did not apologize at all.

[Pinkie Pie]

I never condoned genocide.

What pisses me off the most is that there is no way to remedy this other than to anihilate their entire population, beat free thought into their heads MORE fiercely than their narrow views were beaten into them, or, my personal favorite, NUKE MECCA.

Not to fan the flames of this heated debate, but I don't think mc was being any more aggressive in his posts than Yvl was. He felt directly attacked by the discussion, probably because he's a Muslim himself, or at least from a family that is mostly Muslim. I don't think what he was saying is any more (or less) of an attack than what Yvl's posts could be seen as.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Okay, I'll cool it. I apologize for my threat, and flames, Yvl.

But like I said, you did state some things that made my blood boil.

I said that ONLY al qaeda is bad? Did I really? Cuz I don't remember typing that. From what I recall, all I said was that Al Qaeda was giving Islam a bad wrap. Not to say that it was the only one, in which case I would say "only", but it is a major part of it. And there are definitely plenty of other evils in this world, other than Al Qaeda, George Bush, for example. And I don't think any of us know that only a handful of Al Qaeda is left. For all we know, there could be thousands, which I don't think could be fit into one hand...

Okay, I didn't elaborate enough on my family history. What I should have added is that I do in fact, listen to them, and their actions influence their beliefs, and I cannot count the amount of times that I have been taken aside to be taught in history. Not to mention that I spend an enormous amount of time going to the newspaper of my parent's workplace, looking at news stories, etc.. Feel free to state more examples of my wrongness, because I would like to learn from my mistakes...unlike a certain someone.

But anyways, bottom line is, one should not disregard any form of respect for any religion/institution by ignoring one of their most sacred rules and then showing their prophet, the whole basis for the Islamic world's religion, strapped with explosives.

On a side note, I myself am not Muslim, because after my parents divorced, I converted to Catholicism. But that doesn't change the fact that I have young Muslim cousins who I care for deeply.

[Lancet Jades]

Okay, I'll cool it. I apologize for my threat, and flames, Yvl.

But like I said, you did state some things that made my blood boil.

I said that ONLY al qaeda is bad? Did I really? Cuz I don't remember typing that. From what I recall, all I said was that Al Qaeda was giving Islam a bad wrap. Not to say that it was the only one, in which case I would say "only", but it is a major part of it. And there are definitely plenty of other evils in this world, other than Al Qaeda, George Bush, for example. And I don't think any of us know that only a handful of Al Qaeda is left. For all we know, there could be thousands, which I don't think could be fit into one hand...

Okay, I didn't elaborate enough on my family history. What I should have added is that I do in fact, listen to them, and their actions influence their beliefs, and I cannot count the amount of times that I have been taken aside to be taught in history. Not to mention that I spend an enormous amount of time going to the newspaper of my parent's workplace, looking at news stories, etc.. Feel free to state more examples of my wrongness, because I would like to learn from my mistakes...unlike a certain someone.

But anyways, bottom line is, one should not disregard any form of respect for any religion/institution by ignoring one of their most sacred rules and then showing their prophet, the whole basis for the Islamic world's religion, strapped with explosives.

On a side note, I myself am not Muslim, because after my parents divorced, I converted to Catholicism. But that doesn't change the fact that I have young Muslim cousins who I care for deeply.
Yes, people SHOULDN'T disregard a religion's sacred rules and draw such a blasphemy, but they do it. Its one of the mor undesirable byproducts of FREE SPEECH.

It isn't morally right to do such a thing, especially if Muslims didn't do anything to the guy personally to provoke it, but its within his rights under free speech to draw such a cartoon, and for the newspaper (or whoever) published it to publish it.

Of course Muslims will be offended, but they'll just have to deal with it, just as Christians have to whenever something that blasphemes THEIR religion is published, or said, or whatever have you. Other religions live with various aspects of their religion being mocked, so there's no reason why Muslims shouldn't have to essentially "suck it up" in regards to this cartoon. And if the free world DOES decide to give in and discipline the artist, apologize, or even ban things like that, it should also have to ban mocking Christianity, Judaism, and any other religion.

The reason they're getting so fired up is because, as Yvl has said, they don't tolerate ANYONE making fun of their religion, which is something every other religion has learned to tolerate, mostly due to societal pressure. If they are even so much as apologized to for the cartoon, I expect the whole of Christianity to be apologized to by the artist/authors/etc of any pictures, articles, etc mocking Christianity in a similar way. And since I don't see that happenning, then Islam shouldn't even be apologized to for the cartoons, and they should indeed "suck it up" and stop bitching.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

I have yet to see a cartoon in a real newspaper showing Jesus killing men and sleeping with their spouses, or anything like that...

But the whole of Islam is essentially, "fired-up", because at this point in time, they feel as though they are under attack, and they probably have a right to.

I mean, the Crusades practically drove the Muslims of the Middle East insane, as well as Britain kicking the Muslims out of the Holy Land so that the Jewish people could have a homeland after the Holocaust (I don't mean that it was the Muslim's first, but it was basically "neutral" at that point). It was nice, they may as well have kicked Mohammed in the cahones.

[Pinkie Pie]

Quite honestly, after keeping tabs on this thread for a while, I think that both sides are full of shit in one way or another.

While those rioting are certainly justified in being angry about their religious symbol being basically spat on, violent outcry is not justified, and is taking things way too far. Though I can see how things have gotten to that extent, as everything from the Middle East's religion to their everyday way of life has been excessively mocked in the past few years. This may very well have just been the straw that broke the camel's back, as someone said earlier. Once again, I still think it's taking things too far, but I can understand to an extent why they feel justified.

However, those saying that the cartoon should be forced into view for everyone to see because it's "free speech" are also full of it. Simply because you can do something doesn't mean that it's right. It should be obvious to people that doing something like this is begging for unrest in such a religion-heavy part of the world. "Because we can" is not a competent excuse for inciting such unrest. Free speech only goes so far.

[Lancet Jades]

Quite honestly, after keeping tabs on this thread for a while, I think that both sides are full of shit in one way or another.

While those rioting are certainly justified in being angry about their religious symbol being basically spat on, violent outcry is not justified, and is taking things way too far. Though I can see how things have gotten to that extent, as everything from the Middle East's religion to their everyday way of life has been excessively mocked in the past few years. This may very well have just been the straw that broke the camel's back, as someone said earlier. Once again, I still think it's taking things too far, but I can understand to an extent why they feel justified.

However, those saying that the cartoon should be forced into view for everyone to see because it's "free speech" are also full of it. Simply because you can do something doesn't mean that it's right. It should be obvious to people that doing something like this is begging for unrest in such a religion-heavy part of the world. "Because we can" is not a competent excuse for inciting such unrest. Free speech only goes so far.
Well, I don't think the cartoon should be forced into view in all parts of the world simply because people are offended. But neither should the cartoon be banned, or apologized for, when similar cartoons about people of other religions aren't apologized for, and especially not banned. But, should someone wish to publish the article, it SHOULD be allowed.

And the cartoon, don't forget, was published in Denmark, not an arab country, thus it isn't in the hands of Islamic countries to demand an apology for such a cartoon that appeared in a country with free speech. And should the cartoon be apologized for, then so should any offensive works mocking any other religion that have been published.

Sure, the cartoon is mocking Islam, and offensive to Muslims, but tough. That's a byproduct of free speech, as I've said. If people, under free speech, can freely mock other religions, then Islam shouldn't be given any special treatment, just because they're better at protesting and rioting over it.

[Pinkie Pie]

And the cartoon, don't forget, was published in Denmark, not an arab country, thus it isn't in the hands of Islamic countries to demand an apology for such a cartoon that appeared in a country with free speech.

It really shouldn't matter. It's probably even more infuriating for someone to defame something that means that much to you, and then to go "Ha ha, you can't do anything about it, cause I'm over here!"

And should the cartoon be apologized for, then so should any offensive works mocking any other religion that have been published.

I think anything that offends on this level should be apologized for. Poking fun at a religion and deliberately marring a religious image are two different things. For example, jokes about God and Jesus from Family Guy are poking fun and in good nature. Cartoons of, say, Jesus raping a woman , or Jesus being pissed on while hanging from the cross on the other hand are way out of line, and should likewise be apoligized for as well.

Sure, the cartoon is mocking Islam, and offensive to Muslims, but tough. That's a byproduct of free speech, as I've said. If people, under free speech, can freely mock other religions, then Islam shouldn't be given any special treatment, just because they're better at protesting and rioting over it.

Like I said before, just cause you can doesn't mean you should.

[Lancet Jades]

It really shouldn't matter. It's probably even more infuriating for someone to defame something that means that much to you, and then to go "Ha ha, you can't do anything about it, cause I'm over here!"



I think anything that offends on this level should be apologized for. Poking fun at a religion and deliberately marring a religious image are two different things. For example, jokes about God and Jesus from Family Guy are poking fun and in good nature. Cartoons of, say, Jesus raping a woman , or Jesus being pissed on while hanging from the cross on the other hand are way out of line, and should likewise be apoligized for as well.



Like I said before, just cause you can doesn't mean you should.
Yes, a cartoon of such things happenning to Jesus would prompt an outcry, but that doesn't mean its never happened before. We're just hearing so much from Muslims over the cartoons because they're so good at rioting over smaller stuff, and because the various news agencies world wide love good controversy like this. If a similar cartoon portraying Jesus were to pop up, or if it were a cartoon offending Judaism (since the whole Israel/Palestine thing really shakes up the region, and both sides draw allies and enemies from around the world), it wouldn't be seen as that big of a deal, except of course to Christians/Jews and their allies, but it at least probly would not be as widely publicized, not as violently opposed.

I understand where you're coming from, regarding the whole "its offensize to Islam, so of course they're upset," but the problem is, whether they, or anyone, likes it or not, it is protected under free speech, or at least the level of free speech the free world has now. And lest we forget, they're not rioting just because its an offensize portrayal of Mohammed (though that no doubt makes it worse), but because portraying Mohammed AT ALL is against the rules of Islam, a point I find sorely lacking in this thread, especially by the people arguing FOR the Muslims. The same thing would most likely happen if a non-offensive, or even NICE cartoon were to portray, or just poke fun at Mohammed like that (oh, say, a family guy short involving Mohammed instead of the usual God/Jesus, in the exact same way as God/Jesus have been portrayed.)

And just because you can, doesn't mean you should, but it also doesn't mean you can't, and should you decide to do it, then that's your prerogative. Telling them they can't is violating free speech.

[Pinkie Pie]

Yes, a cartoon of such things happenning to Jesus would prompt an outcry, but that doesn't mean its never happened before.

I'm agreeing with you on your point that they should be made to be apologized for as well. You simply made it sound like religion should not be joked about at all, which is what I was disagreeing with.

We're just hearing so much from Muslims over the cartoons because they're so good at rioting over smaller stuff, and because the various news agencies world wide love good controversy like this. If a similar cartoon portraying Jesus were to pop up, or if it were a cartoon offending Judaism (since the whole Israel/Palestine thing really shakes up the region, and both sides draw allies and enemies from around the world), it wouldn't be seen as that big of a deal, except of course to Christians/Jews and their allies, but it at least probly would not be as widely publicized, not as violently opposed.

I understand where you're coming from, regarding the whole "its offensize to Islam, so of course they're upset," but the problem is, whether they, or anyone, likes it or not, it is protected under free speech, or at least the level of free speech the free world has now. And lest we forget, they're not rioting just because its an offensize portrayal of Mohammed (though that no doubt makes it worse), but because portraying Mohammed AT ALL is against the rules of Islam, a point I find sorely lacking in this thread, especially by the people arguing FOR the Muslims. The same thing would most likely happen if a non-offensive, or even NICE cartoon were to portray, or just poke fun at Mohammed like that (oh, say, a family guy short involving Mohammed instead of the usual God/Jesus, in the exact same way as God/Jesus have been portrayed.)

Rather than repeating myself, I'll just do this.

While those rioting are certainly justified in being angry about their religious symbol being basically spat on, violent outcry is not justified, and is taking things way too far. Though I can see how things have gotten to that extent, as everything from the Middle East's religion to their everyday way of life has been excessively mocked in the past few years. This may very well have just been the straw that broke the camel's back, as someone said earlier. Once again, I still think it's taking things too far, but I can understand to an extent why they feel justified.


And just because you can, doesn't mean you should, but it also doesn't mean you can't, and should you decide to do it, then that's your prerogative. Telling them they can't is violating free speech.

I never said that they should be told they can't. Just that they shouldn't. Likewise, people calling the cartoonists assholes for what they did shouldn't be told that they can't say that because "it's free speech".

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Goddamn you people and your... fastpostingness.

The reason they're getting so fired up is because, as Yvl has said, they don't tolerate ANYONE making fun of their religion, which is something every other religion has learned to tolerate, mostly due to societal pressure. If they are even so much as apologized to for the cartoon, I expect the whole of Christianity to be apologized to by the artist/authors/etc of any pictures, articles, etc mocking Christianity in a similar way. And since I don't see that happenning, then Islam shouldn't even be apologized to for the cartoons, and they should indeed "suck it up" and stop bitching.You're blaming the wrong beast. It's not "Islam," it's the Middle East. If Christians were in the Middle East and Muslims controlled the Western world, it'd be the same goddamn thing.

[Lancet Jades]

Goddamn you people and your... fastpostingness.

You're blaming the wrong beast. It's not "Islam," it's the Middle East. If Christians were in the Middle East and Muslims controlled the Western world, it'd be the same goddamn thing.
But the middle east is controlled by Islam, essentially. I've said it before, I'm not blaming all of islam (though I do admit it may sound like that from how I word it), I'm blaming Islam in the middle east, because since the middle east is essentially ruled by Islam, or at least those claiming it as their religion, Islam IS at least partially to blame for things that happen.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Well if you're talking about who controls the Middle East, then Judiasm is at least partially to blame for things that happen as well. After all, they do control the Holy Land, at this point in time. Which is the source of a lot of chaos.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

But the middle east is controlled by Islam, essentially.I disagree. Controlled by Islamic clerics, certainly, but that's definitely not the same.

I've said it before, I'm not blaming all of islam (though I do admit it may sound like that from how I word it)Considering you were also talking about "Christians everywhere," I'm guessing you were actually talking about Islam in its entirety, even if you didn't realize it. That's the problem: even if you can intellectually seperate Middle Eastern Islam and general Islam, you start to subconsciously mesh the two when you keep blaming "Islam." That's why I call it misdirection. Either call them Middle Easterners or call them Middle Eastern Muslims, but don't just say "Islam" or "Muslims" when assigning blame or else you associate it with bad things everytime you say/see the word.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Bah, semantics are a bitch. But chances are that it's not just Christians everywhere. There are those few atheists and anagnostic people who contribute to the problem. For instance, does anyone know if that cartoon was made by a Christian? Not to be a source of debate, but as a point of referrance.

In the New York Times, I've taken from an article that although there is still some violence, the focus is starting to shift to peaceful protest. Perhaps it's just "venting". Despite the protest in general, I think that they are targeting the wrong people. The same article said that French embassies were attacked. I guess that's because the Danish embassy was already attacked. They've been boycotting all Danish products, which means that businesses that aren't the newspaper are taking a hit, no matter how small or big it may be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/11/international/europe/11denmark.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Lancet Jades]

Well Raist, you have a point, but let's also not forget that the issue here is that the cartoon offended Islam by portraying Mohammed, which I think is the bigger issue here. As I said, I'm sure the fact it wasn't a positive portrayal added fuel, but the main cry I've heard is that it is against the laws of Islam to create a picture of Mohammed. Hence, this issue DOES involve Islam.

The problem is the thread keeps descending into the underlying world problems that contribute to the situation, which most likely has more to do with the middle east's state than Islam itself. But the fact remains, the protests were over a portrayal of Mohammed, which breaks Islamic law, or so the protestors cry.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Not to mention that in order to see if the Middle Eastern Muslims have a good reason to protest, you have to take into account the state of the Middle East, as well as Western influence.

[Lancet Jades]

Not to mention that in order to see if the Middle Eastern Muslims have a good reason to protest, you have to take into account the state of the Middle East, as well as Western influence.
Well, honestly, I can see why they would, since the cartoon was directed at them specifically (not all Muslims, just them), and I'm not saying that drawing the cartoon was perfectly right either, but the fact remains its protected under free speech, just as a cartoon that blasphemes any other religion would, to be drawn and published.

I'm saying that the extent to which they protested and even rioted was ridiculous, and basically treating them the same way Christians would get treated if they were to violently protest and riot over a cartoon seriously blaspheming Jesus. I don't blame them at all for protesting, but I do for rioting, and for the violence that has ensued from it.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

It wasn't just targeted at the Muslim extremists, though. One of the issues is that they made Mohammed out to look like an extremist, which offended the non-extremist Muslims, and caused them to help in the rioting, and protesting.

[Sassafrass Raistimass]

Well Raist, you have a point, but let's also not forget that the issue here is that the cartoon offended Islam by portraying Mohammed, which I think is the bigger issue here. As I said, I'm sure the fact it wasn't a positive portrayal added fuel, but the main cry I've heard is that it is against the laws of Islam to create a picture of Mohammed. Hence, this issue DOES involve Islam.I honestly don't know if that's an Islamic law or just a Middle Eastern one, but I also think it's been completely overstated in the Western media: the law has been mentioned in literally every news report I've read on the subject, but whenever I've seen anyone ask the Muslims themselves they only talk about how offensive the actual cartoons were.

The problem is the thread keeps descending into the underlying world problems that contribute to the situation, which most likely has more to do with the middle east's state than Islam itself.I don't see that as a problem. The state of the Middle East is far, far more responsible for this fiasco than Islam is.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

I have to agree, now that it's brought up. You're last sentence, that is. He summed it up in so few words. I gotta learn to articulate better. Reppies

[Dark Luther]

One must not forget that the middle east - or in many other's view - Islam as a whole, has outside reasons for their bitter view on things.

They have seen the west take sides against them several times, and are mistrusting of most western nations as a general rule.

This is in much the same way as most in the US harbor mistrust about anyone from anywhere in the middle east - not taking into account their nations or beliefs.

Thus when this cartoon was seen - it was seen as the west taking it's liberal view of religion and throwing it at their faces...

[Zelphiel]

Part of it is also the fault of the media over there. If they wanted to avoid mass rioting they could have not printed and not shown what happened. Or if not shown, just lightly shown. I know it's a huge deal for them to even have an image of Mohammed especially one that is being used to insult Islam, but their media did nothing but throw a match into a tank of gas. All of the people that are upset now would have been regardless, but I don't think it would have been to the degree it was if it wasn't shoved down their throats. They've got plenty of other more legitimate reasons to hate the west besides a cartoon.

[Rainbow Dash]

Right, right. They didn't shove it into the muslims' faces, even though it was likely the artist's intention to upset them. If they don't want to get pissed off about it, they just shouldn't look at it. But then, they've been taught that free speech is the devil or something like that. I don't know anymore, I just finished a 6 page research paper, so I dont even know if I'm being coherent or not at this point.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Well they believe it's unfair that people can freely insult Islam, but it is a crime to make jokes about the Holocaust. It kinda makes sense, I mean I would get my ass whooped if I ever made a joke about it.

Zelphiel, are you talking about the Middle Eastern media? If you are, then it is only half right. Being that most countries in the Middle East are Muslim-based, the (insane) Muslim clerics in Karachi and Syria just started flailing it around claiming that it is blasphemy. Which is true. But it was still blown out of proportion.

Aye, I understand where you're coming from Yvl, I wrote a 5 page research paper on Biodiversity, and all I thought about was global warming, after that.

[Zelphiel]

Zelphiel, are you talking about the Middle Eastern media? If you are, then it is only half right. Being that most countries in the Middle East are Muslim-based, the (insane) Muslim clerics in Karachi and Syria just started flailing it around claiming that it is blasphemy. Which is true. But it was still blown out of proportion.

yeah. I know that their media isn't the same thing as ours. All I mean by that word is their information sources.

[[PhiberOpticks]]

Hmm, apparantly NBC Nightly News mentioned some rumors going around in the Middle East that the burning of copies of the Quran are being burned in city squares. Misinformation is a powerful tool. Just gives 'em another reason to fight.

[Day]

Imo, those dirty bastards shouldn't have started shit. Shooooot. They all, drawin' shit and what not. They gotta know better.